#8 - Fabio Cao's Multi-Million Pound Business Model
You had traveled to a 198 out of 198 countries.
Fabio:I was always looking for something that would give me freedom. We assume we have all the time to work. We realized that the business was very scalable. You gotta do this for my 17 years old. So you've gotta give us something in order to be to to take something else.
Dean:Hey, buddy. How you doing? You are going to love this guest. I swear to god. He his name is Fabio Cao.
Dean:He pretty much travels year round at his own pace going offline for weeks at a time. Alongside being an avid explorer, he is also an intelligent and successful entrepreneur from Italy. And he lives in London. That's once upon a time how we knew one another because he was a client of mine. Now Fabio has actually traveled to 193 countries plus the 5 disputed territories which makes it 198 in total.
Dean:And he's the only person, the first person to do this with an Italian passport. And this has literally been verified and posted on a blog on Vanity Fair. So you might be wondering how does he fund this? He has built from scratch a chain of 6 hostels in Europe and South America with no experience after working in nightclubs. And fast forward, he has now traveled freely while his business runs for him and this pays for his lifestyle.
Dean:So very good move by him. In the episode, you'll leave understanding why he quit his job, how he took an 80 k risk with no experience, how his world got turned upside down when COVID hit and tourism just stopped dead for 2 years, How you can reframe the doubt you may be experiencing in order to actually take a step today. And some practical advice that you can use right now to start your journey and a hell of a lot more as well. And if you're new entirely, Equitable is a show for people who hate their job. Having more time, being financially free, having a true sense of purpose are all things I believe most, if not every single person on the planet would grasp at if given the chance.
Dean:But instead, so many of us will resign ourselves to 30 or 40 years in a career that we don't care about and never change. So why doesn't each of us go for these things? For me, it was because I didn't believe I could. And the aim with each of these episodes is to instill belief in you that you can change by showing you the minds of other regular people who have chartered paths which offer more time, freedom, and purpose in their lives. So let's get into it.
Dean:And by the way, don't tell your boss. Fabio, we are gonna get to your business, right? I really wanna get into your business. I'm so interested in unpacking how you got there, what it's like now, And all that everything to do with your business. But one thing I didn't realize in the build up to this was that you had traveled to 198 out of 198 countries, and featured on Vanity Fair because you were the 1st person to do it with an Italian passport.
Dean:And yeah, that's correct. I was like, wow, that is that is quite the statistic. Do you remember what point you decided you were you were like, I'm gonna do all 198 of these countries?
Fabio:When I think it was around maybe 10 years ago, around 2013, 20 I think 2012, let's say. 2013. And I was just wondering. Oh, I wonder how many countries I've been to right now. And who knows?
Fabio:Because I, you know, I used to travel a lot, and I get in check. And it was around maybe a 130. And I was, okay. How many countries are there in the world? And then I found out it's like 190 well, the United Nations recognized 193 because it doesn't recognize Palestine.
Fabio:It doesn't recognize Taiwan. That you can see the Western Sahara, which is a technically country, but the United Nation doesn't. I'm like, okay. So so maybe I can actually see them all. I mean, you know, so and that's kinda how that that that happened.
Fabio:You know? I would like I think it would be very cool, kind of, like, if if something happened tomorrow and, you know, I can say I've done something really you know, not many people have done it in the world. You know? So that was kind of, like, a a thing for my personal legacy. Let's put it that way.
Fabio:Yeah.
Dean:So you didn't even realize until country 130 that you had been to a 130?
Fabio:Yeah. I know. Because it wasn't a point of of, like, stay there and counting. I was more low. You know?
Fabio:I I you know, I used I'd always been very curious and, just by watching documentaries or reading books. And there was always something on new countries. I was like, oh, I wonder how, I don't know, Timor Reese is. Or I wonder how the Democratic Republic of Congress in a documentary. Oh, wow.
Fabio:This is interesting. You know? So I make points and dots here and there. And then whenever I could plan a new trip, I was like, okay. Let me try and organize a trip and go and see this place or this other place.
Fabio:You know? And so that's kinda how how the thing developed. But he wasn't, yeah, conscious from from the start. You know?
Dean:Yeah. So what initially made travel so pertinent in your life?
Fabio:I remember when I was a kid, I used to draw maps. I would just get a map of I don't know what other country, New Zealand, and just go with the I outline it on a paper and so forth. And, but I was I was a kid. Like, I was not even a teenager, I think. And I I used to like that a lot.
Fabio:And then I remember, obviously, growing up with a lot of American TV, and I left home when I as soon as I turned 18, and I went to the US on my own without speaking English, funny enough, because I grew up with that idea of, Baywatch and Beverly Hills, 902. I know those were the things. And, you know, you said, like, oh my god. That's that's, you know, so much fun in a way that you cannot really get to see pictures unless you bought a travel magazine or there was something on TV that will show it. You cannot just go on demand and see pictures or videos.
Fabio:It was impossible. So your imagination runs wild or how I wonder how Thailand you're in or Brazil is or Uruguay is. It's just all about what you create in your own mind. You know? A lot of time, I mean, there was very different than what I thought.
Fabio:You know? But, that's how it was.
Dean:That's so true. And people nowadays I mean, I've been traveling. I went backpacking. Yeah. I knew exactly what I was gonna see each time.
Dean:And, you know, I still I still was awestruck and had my breath taken away, but I can only imagine what it was like just having a map.
Fabio:Yeah. There was no perfect I mean, the the exact I remember the the time when I landed in Miami, and I was 18 years old on my own with my English that I studied in middle school for 3 years and my big Miami map. And I came out of the airport. I was like, oh my god. What is this?
Fabio:And then you need to figure out how to get from a to b. There ain't nobody or Google Maps telling you that's where you're gonna go. So you gotta talk trying to talk to people, trying to understand people. You make a lot of mistakes. I remember the first time I was in Asia with 2 big suitcases dragging him along.
Fabio:There's no Google Translate. And you walk in the streets of Bangkok, Manila, trying to find addresses. And he's just crazy because he would you know, it was just very frustrating. It gets hot, and no one understand you. And that's how it was.
Fabio:You know? And he was he was surprised what, you know, the place it looked like because I I never had any idea. Because as as I said, images were not there or videos were very limited. Was it there, like, a library, as I said, or a TV show or a travel magazine? You could get a little bit, but just just a that's a tiny bit.
Fabio:But the rest of the logistic, that's all on you being able to navigate, you know, the the the place. You don't really have much, much health and technology.
Dean:It's mad to think that you've literally been to every single country. Like, what's what's a typical Monday like in North Korea?
Fabio:Well, North Korea. I don't know if the Monday is different from Tuesday or Wednesday. But, I mean, that was more of, the truth in North Korea is, is very organized in a way that you are not allowed to travel on your own as a sole traveler in your career.
Dean:What they want you to see?
Fabio:Correct. So you're forced to be in a group, and the group gets picked up at a time on a Monday morning at a hotel. And you get put on a van, and then they'll they'll take you and show you around whatever the program says.
Dean:I do wanna get to your business and how your business is, like, supported this insane lifestyle. And I'm sure we could probably have a full podcast or 2 full podcasts just on your travels. And I honestly, I probably would myself, but I definitely want to get into your business and understand that as well. But before we do just to kind of finish off the travel component, like, it's such an obvious question, but what you've seen literally every country. So like, what is your standout one?
Dean:And this is probably a hard question. But like, what's your standout one?
Fabio:What's really hard is
Dean:what's one of
Fabio:I think
Dean:a Maybe to maybe to make it easier for you, I'll say, what was one of your most treasured memories from traveling that stands out that comes to your mind? One of the first ones that comes to your mind now, and why?
Fabio:Yeah. That's a that's a bit different because the memory is for different reason. Like, there is places that maybe has touched me because I have a I had either a crazy experience, but I didn't really particularly like the place. But that kind of stuck in my mind. I mean, I'll tell you a story.
Fabio:It's actually funny enough. It's it's it's a bit of a sad story because I found out, and the person that was with me in that moment actually passed away a couple of days ago. And he was, he was my fixer. The fixer is, in difficult countries to get in, you usually try to rely on a local contact helping you somehow getting the visa and do certain thing. So that was in the Central African Republic, which most people don't even know as a country.
Fabio:It's in the central part of Africa. It's called Central African Republic. So this guy, his name was Desiree, was, also a fixer for VICE, VICE documentary. So VICE, went there and shot a lot of village during the civil war. So I hired this guy to, I mean, he would he would obviously, you know, know people how to move around, all this type of thing.
Fabio:He organized all the logistics and stuff like that. So Hani helped me out because, there's no embassy here in London. It's one of the few country which doesn't have any embassy in London. So he helped me out to get a lending permit, I remember, for the Central African Republic where I get a piece of paper from the government there that allows me to land and then obtain the visa on on So you
Dean:can get in?
Fabio:So yeah. Correct. So on that trip, remember specifically we took I went to this waterfall. It's a couple hours out of the capital. Mangi, he was with me.
Fabio:The car broke down a couple of times on the way there, but we made it. On the way back, though, the car broke down again, and it's pitch dark in the middle of nowhere. We jump in the back of a motorcycle, and it's 3 of us trying to get to the capital. Because the morning after, I remember I got a flight to Casablanca, Morocco, and they only fly out, I think, 2 times a week or something. Like, I need to make the flight.
Fabio:I think we're still, like, maybe 2 hours from the capital, checkpoint by police. They see me. They stop us. They'd be like, no. No.
Fabio:No. You cannot go any further because the rebels are still in the bushes. Because the rebel were pushed away from the capital. But they said, if they see you, they might attack, whatever whatever. Discussion over there, they don't want me to go further.
Fabio:They want me to sleep in the forest. I'm like, I got a flight tomorrow morning at, like, 7:30. I need to be in on heat. Yeah. Yeah.
Fabio:Don't worry about it. Like, you'll think, like, 4 o'clock, 5 o'clock, you wake me up and, you know, and they took my passport. Because I was able to register me and took my passport. I was like, oh my god. So we go and try to sleep in a makeshift hut, and he's pretty sorry.
Fabio:There's no electricity whatsoever. And I'm speaking to Desiree. Guy was with me. I said, listen. Tomorrow morning, I'm gonna talk.
Fabio:We need to leave here latest whatever. So we're trying to sleep. I get up. Of course, I had the alarm. And at that time and guess what?
Fabio:There was no one answer. And then people are like, hello? Hello? I'm like, oh my god. It's like 4:35.
Fabio:At one point, actually, the policeman and woman wake up and come and see me. I said, okay. We need to leave now. Like, I said, get a car because we need to go. And the guy at that point, the policeman decided, as it happens in in a lot of this country, look at my passport.
Fabio:It's like, yeah. But you don't have the permit to be in this area. I'm like, please don't even start with this. I'm like, you're making nonsense. I said, I have a Visa.
Fabio:There's no extra permit to be in this area. So they started the usual things Said, no. But, you shouldn't be here, and this is me. Like and, obviously, it's my word in the middle of the forest, in a terrible country against somebody with a uniform saying the opposite and so forth. Big argument starts in French because the guy couldn't speak much English and so forth.
Fabio:And at the end, I think I ended up paying maybe $50 US to get a passport because I was like, I can't say he was I knew why he he started doing that because he didn't do that the night before. So he just, you know, in the morning after, he just are like, yeah. By the way, you're not meant to be, you know, the old thing. And so get the passport, pay the guy, get in the car, and he's trying to rush in the airport. I made I I likely made a flight.
Fabio:That's one of the situation. There's there there've been a few in in in some country which are kind of memories. And the fact that this person, Desiree, passed away a few days ago just kind of, like, made me remember that now that you mentioned about memories. You know?
Dean:Yeah. Well, I'm I'm sorry to hear about Desiree passing away. And I Yeah. Can you know, cheers to him, you know? And, I can certainly having been to east Africa myself relate to run ins with police and also exactly the same thing with a passport scenario where we had to drive them.
Dean:And it's, it's scary, but, you know, you've got probably an infinite locker of moments that you could call upon like that and countries that you could reference. But, that is just yeah. Yeah. That's wild, man. But I do want to take segue into into your business now and understand how you do this because somebody might be listening to me like, okay, great.
Dean:You can travel to 198 countries, but how the hell are you doing that? I can't do that. I've got a job. I've got a Right. A 9 to 5.
Dean:I've got kids. I've got this. I've got that. Sure. I've got these things stopping me.
Dean:How is Fabio doing this? And now I know obviously you've got no limits hostel. You've got 6 locations in you got South America, you got Barcelona as well. Right? Like, when you started this, like, what was your original goal when you started this hostel?
Dean:Was it like, I want to be a digital nomad? Was it I want to have a big exit down the line? Was it something to support your lifestyle? Like, why did you actually start it?
Fabio:Well, I was always looking for something that would give me, let's say, freedom. Exactly that. And support and give me, yes, freedom of, say, and buy back my own time in a way that I didn't need to be Friday night there because, otherwise, I don't make any money. I did not like that. And that's what I was doing before.
Fabio:Friday Saturday night, I had to be a lender at that play because What were you guys?
Dean:I have
Fabio:to be there. I was running clubs, actually, in Mayfair for, for a few years with my other business partner. And as much as he was good, and I still had 5 pretty much days to travel, and sometime I would, I would leave on a Sunday morning, go to Heathrow, and we'll fly to Antigua and come Thursday and landing back on a Friday and then go to the club. And then I will fly to Hong Kong on a Sunday and come in. He was still didn't like the fact that my income was related to me being there on those day.
Fabio:Anything could have happened because it it's still it's a very, pickled business, and it's a trendy business. I think trend can change in a second, and, and I have really no control over it. I don't really own any asset because the owner of the place could say, oh, disagreement with them. It'd be like, from a day to another one, you guys are out. And boom.
Fabio:All of a sudden, I lose everything I'm making because of a disagreement. So that didn't sit well with me, even though I use it for as long as I could, but then didn't sit well with me. So when the opportunity and at that time, I I mean, I didn't realize the very beginning was the opportunity that would have obviously led to this because he was a old friend of mine, which I lived with in Miami in 98. Imagine that. And he was a older man from Royal Battalion that I reconnected on Facebook.
Fabio:When Facebook came about around 2010, 2009, 2010, that told me about this, which she said, oh, I'm back in Europe. I thought he was in America, and I've been looking at, this woman, which is selling her hostel in Barcelona. And in the beginning, he'd not even talked to me about, like, getting involved because he said, oh, I have my friend who is selling this pizza place in Rome, and we're gonna do it. But I think a couple weeks after, he contact me again and said, if you're interested, let's meet again. Let's come see.
Fabio:So I was like but at that time, I I had no idea about a hostel work or or anything. I said, like, for my current
Dean:yeah. Why why did he
Fabio:pick you? Because, obviously, I reconnected with him on Facebook after so long. I was like his son. When I was 18, he was 55. And I remember when we met in Miami, and he owned a restaurant back then, a club and a club restaurant in Miami.
Fabio:He said to me, yeah, like, you're like my you you will see my son in him because his son was the same age. You know? So and after we reconnected obviously, he needed money because he wanted to get involved as well and and have a part of it. Because at the beginning, he was our partner for the first, I think, 6 months as well, or 9 months. I didn't have the all amount.
Fabio:So and then I said to my current business partner, who's also a friend of mine for the last 25 years, because we know he's had his kids. I said, listen. This friend of mine from Miami is in Barcelona. He's telling me about the hostel. Do you wanna go see it with me next week?
Fabio:Because I haven't seen him in 10 years, I said. And he was like, yeah. Let's go. So we just went, and he show us the place, and he was looking very bad, in very bad shape, in my opinion, not knowing much about it. But the numbers were interesting.
Fabio:You know? And, my friend had just finished an MBA actually here in London back then. So and, also, he looked at numbers. I to be honest, for the money they're asking, I said, if everything goes well, we get the money back in a couple of months. And if everything goes bad, we we'll just keep doing what we're doing.
Fabio:That's not the end of the word because for the money they're asking. So we just decided to go for it. But, like, okay. We're in. So, like, top of it.
Fabio:You know? So, yeah, we just we just we just try without having really any experience in that. You know?
Dean:What was the investment?
Fabio:I think total yeah. Between everything was probably $80, which is in that context. Exactly. I explained you why. Because a woman was divorcing from her husband, and she was gonna be crazy in a way that, like, she was, like, I don't know.
Fabio:Like, you could, like, she sold way cheaper than what it should have been, you know, to, to us because she just couldn't focus on that and, found out that was going without a woman and things like that. So she really kind of lost it. This woman from from from Barcelona herself. So we were like, I think it's worth it, you know. And, you know, it's not that crazy money to have this type of assets.
Fabio:Like, the number are great. The place look like rubbish. But I'm like, you know, I think it's worth a try.
Dean:Hey. Sorry to interrupt the show. Very quick favor to ask you. If you are finding any value or even finding it slightly entertaining, please consider giving me a follow on whichever platform you're watching this or listening to it on. It really helps, especially in the early stage of growth, and I will owe you a big, big thanks.
Dean:So you were protect you were you were effectively prepared to almost risk the 80 k and say, look. I'm confident in my numbers here. I mean, it probably won't go to 0, but I'm willing to Yeah. Put some money down there and see where this goes.
Fabio:That's kinda yeah. Correct. That's kinda how we analyze. We were like, okay. If things are as they say in those number on the back of the, of of the bread package are correct, free for my let's say it's not free for my let's say it's in months, 10 months.
Fabio:That's fine. That's great still. It's a
Dean:good break even point.
Fabio:Yeah. That that that's why we were like, I think it's worth it giving a try. I don't think there's that many other business in this niche that we can acquire with this money. So so, yeah, we decided to go for it. My business partner then finished his MBA here.
Fabio:Right away, moved to Barcelona, go live in a hostel and, like, look at the operation and, you know, and so we and start to understand a lot more. We know what's what's going on, what's wrong, what can be done, what cannot be done, things that we never thought about it. In the meantime, I'm still actually involved in running clubs here, you know, because I didn't just live straight away. So and, we just, yeah. We just kept that.
Fabio:And, and after that, the same woman owned another place, which was a smaller place, it was more of a guest house. We also acquired that from her, you know, because obviously, she was going through all this thing, and she was just trying to get rid of whatever she had for some reason. So and then we realized that, the business was very scalable. And he was giving us what we wanted. Because if we scale it to a certain level, we're like, you my business partner, you don't even need to be there anymore.
Fabio:We'll just need to hire somebody who has the skill and the competence and the trust to do what we do. And we can just obviously get whatever profit out of it, you know, after x amount of year. The idea was to grow. So we didn't really touch we didn't really pay our cell phone with nothing nothing for the 1st 2 years. 0, actually.
Fabio:Literally, 0 for 2 or 3 years, because we were trying to acquire as many businesses as possible. And that's what we did. You know, we reinvested pretty much a 100% the first, I'll say, 3 year 2 and a half years, 3 years. A 100%. I was living off the savings and money he was making here with the with the clubs, and he was leaving off savings that he had because he was making 0 out of being there.
Fabio:You know? Because we need to make a decision, as you know, in business, certain point. Are you taking the money, or are you investing that money into your asset? It's you need to find a balance. But at the beginning, it was like, we don't need this.
Fabio:Like, it doesn't make a difference if I take this money out. What am I gonna do with it? So let's see if there's anything else out there we can acquire that will create more cash flow. So that was the, our idea.
Dean:One of the things I love about that is that because if you think about, like, the main reasons people will stay in that job. Right? You know, you said that you had to be there on Friday Saturday. You were tied to that. If you don't come in the money doesn't come in.
Dean:It's, it's such a, it's a scary thing to let go of that. Now you, you had this like opportunity and you identified like, okay, I can kind of see the way out of regaining this 80 ks, let's say.
Fabio:Yeah.
Dean:What? And you, you know, to your credit, you just went for it and it worked for you. But I think what a lot of people struggle with is like the bravery to kind of just go for that. Because you could advise you could have easily just dipped out at that point and said, oh, look, I don't know. I've never made a hostel before.
Dean:I've never ran a business like this before. I just am a bit scared. There's money on the line. Like, how do you think people could find that little bravery in them to kinda just tip over at that point? Because I feel like that's such a point where people fall off.
Fabio:I think a question they should ask their themselves is what's the alternative? What's the alternative to this is gonna lead me to? To stay where you are. Best case scenario, to stay where you are, is it gonna lead you to the life that you want? Because if it doesn't, then you're the only one to blame at some point, you know.
Fabio:And time goes fast. We don't live forever. People don't realize how fine if our time is. You know? And you're gonna be sad when you look back, and you wish you started a company.
Fabio:You wish you took that risk. Now you can't do it anymore. I don't wanna live with that.
Dean:Dude, that keeps me all the time.
Fabio:You know? Yeah. I wanna do all I can, and mistake will be made. Money will be lost in business because that's what, you know, those mistake is gonna cost you when you run your own business. It's just part of it.
Fabio:But I really be doing this and trying to achieve what I want out of life in my control, than giving somebody else full control and be told when I need to go to the bathroom, when I need to go on vacation. I don't want it. I'm sorry. And that's that that's kinda how it is. People should look and and understand, are they happy where they are?
Fabio:They are not okay? Are you, you know is that risk worth it, trying? You know, and I'm not saying, like, because obviously, each of us, all of us are in a different position. Like, somebody's married, somebody's got kids. So the way you look at it is different.
Fabio:But if whatever you're gonna be doing is not gonna tip you off, meaning make you lose everything you have, and you can still get that job that you have in another place, that you can still that's still gonna be there for you in that company or somebody else, I think it's worth a try. You know? That's what I always tell also younger people. You know, my cousin is one of them, and he's younger than Seth. That little job that you have at that time, you can get it again, but you cannot get back those years.
Fabio:You're gonna turn your head. You're gonna be dirty, and the dynamics in your life is gonna be different. You're gonna have a relationship, you're gonna be that. You cannot take those risk. It's gonna be harder.
Fabio:I would say you you cannot you can, but it's gonna be harder to take those risk or make those decision 10, 15 year down the line. So, you know, that's that's what people should should should think about.
Dean:I love that. I love the way you frame that as you're losing time, and you can never get that back. And what I've been realizing lately as well is, like, it's the further you get into having a comfortable salary that grows by like 5% every year, so you get a little bit more and the job gets a little bit better. The further in you go, it's like it's less likely that you come back out, I feel like, the more you get in there. And that
Fabio:that You are correct.
Dean:That's quite daunting for like, the further you get in, you're like, oh, well, I can't leave this now. I'm after getting paid the x amount per year. Where am I gonna get that again?
Fabio:The longer you stay sitting down on a on a comfortable sofa, the harder it is to get up. You know? So that's that's the kind of the analogy. So I I I I agree on it. And, also, it depends.
Fabio:All of us are surrounded by people, which, obviously, we absorb things that they do, they say, as sponges or family or this type of thing. That kind of influence a lot. I guess, a lot of people decision because they're afraid, oh, what my friends are gonna say of that? What my friends? What if I fail?
Fabio:What if but to me, like, not not trying, not going for it, once you got one life, that is crazy. You're gonna be, and I I say that we know not looking down anything. I live mediocre a mediocre life just because you didn't wanna take that risk or make that jump. That is crazy because as far as I know, we're not coming back. So and if we do, then we'll find out.
Fabio:But I'm just like, you know Then you
Dean:gotta jump.
Fabio:Leave now. And I don't wanna leave at 60 like, yeah. But then when you get 65, I don't wanna Who guarantees me I'm gonna be here at 65? Who guaranteed me I'm not gonna be in a wheelchair? That's always how I think.
Fabio:There's no guarantee. How that's why I'm like, I I travel when I can. I wanna do the things when I can, when I'm able to. I'm not gonna take for granted and postpone things, because that's crazy, a crazy mentality. Keep on postponing because we assume that we have all the time to work, which we don't.
Fabio:But that's kinda how how our human brain works. Right? So and people always complain. I'm sure you get your friends. Oh, so I got my friend.
Fabio:And, yeah, but I should get paid more days. I need more holiday. They don't understand that those access never cross. Security and every more never cross. You gotta give up something in order to be to to take something else.
Fabio:And people are not willing to. You know? They want more, and they want security, and they want more holiday, and they wanna do what they want. That does not exist. You know?
Fabio:You know? That does not exist. You need to get unbalanced. Even when you walk forward, what do you do? You lift a foot off the ground so you unbalance yourself.
Fabio:You can move forward keeping your 2 feet on the ground. Period.
Dean:That's a great analogy. I love Yeah.
Fabio:Analogy. It's just it's just the truth. You know, when you think about that, you'd be like, yeah.
Dean:I from speaking to you and hearing about the way you live. I remember we spoke previously and you said to me, oh, yeah, I think I might go to Iran for 3 months this year and bring my mom to Iran. And that really stuck with me because I to to be able to say a sentence like that, I think I might go to Iran for 3 months and bring my mother. The flexibility, the autonomy that that person who says that sentence has is insane. And we both know, as we've both discussed just now, you will never ever even come 1% close to that level of autonomy, financial flexibility, and, you know, freedom working in a in a company for someone else.
Dean:It's just not possible. Right? And it's just a it's a credit to the work you've put in. And I want to just go back to your business itself. And, you know, fast forward a little bit because 2020 comes around.
Dean:Yeah. You know, everyone's favorite pandemic. And you are in a service based business that relies solely on international travel and tourism being at its height. Like Yeah. Can you take us back to, like, a time when you and your business partner, like, when you realized that this was, like, serious?
Fabio:Yeah. I mean, when there was, there there's, I think it was the end of February, something already start moving because there's this big conference in Barcelona, the Mobile World Conference for mobile phones. It's huge. Usually, that's that's a very busy. And company will start canceling their stand or attendance because of this so called there was a virus.
Fabio:At that time, I bear in mind, I was in California. I was actually in Los Angeles because I came back to London, I think, the a whatever. And there was nothing in the US. Nobody was talking about in the US. So when I came back to London, and I remember I saw the airport.
Fabio:Funny enough, I'm from Milan, and they were saying because I think the thing they said whatever was started. They found the first case. It was in Italy. If you come from the Lumberto, either region, just get yourself checked, whatever. But, you know, you don't make nothing of it.
Fabio:And then the more the days were going forward, the more I was like, okay. This is getting
Dean:You weren't worried at all at that point?
Fabio:No. Not yet till the end of March. I think it was, like, 3rd week end of March where, like, governments were like, you need to close the business need to be closed. This cannot be closed. You cannot move like that.
Fabio:And then I started to, like not panic, but, like, Okay. Does it need to be take attention? I mean, like, okay. So we just started discussing, oh, okay. What do we do?
Fabio:And the the the the the the the biggest doubt was how long is this gonna last? Because, like, okay, you tell me, you're closed now, you're reopening, you're like, okay, no problem. I'll make a plan. But there was no it was impossible to plan anything because nobody had any guidelines, you know. And things were changing every day, every week.
Fabio:You know, somebody was saying something, and then somebody else will say something else. And, but to a point that then when you got to because bear in mind, in a lot of cities, as you know, they're seasonal. So the majority of the turnover for us in Spain is done between March October. And guess what? This thing happened in March.
Fabio:So we were like, June, July, August makes maybe 60% of the turnover. So we were like, if by then, May, this thing is not sorted, that's a big problem. Because then we lose pretty much all in mind the season, and we then we're gonna go into low season again. And that will happen.
Dean:Little did you know.
Fabio:You know? And and that that that will happen more as, you know, you we we all know. So that was, it was very stressful. It was very stressful because, obviously, he just he just kills everything and put everything up in the air. You need to find solution that you don't have at the moment.
Fabio:You need to be creative, but there is so little that you can do once you have a big expenses, monthly running expenses, which will not stop running even though this thing is happening. You know? At the same time, you're making 0, literally 0 money. But money, I keep on flooding out of the accounts.
Dean:Rent.
Fabio:You know what I mean? Rent, bills, there was severance for the employees. Because in in August, I remember we had to have a big meeting first in the one in Barcelona with all the employees and fire all of them besides one. And And now there are people who've been there for x amount, and we have to pay x amount of money to leave. In summary, you're you've been closed in the last 4 or 5 months.
Fabio:And, you know, the, landlord that own the building, they maybe are paying the lease. They still like, well, we need to pay our mortgage, so you need to pay the rent even though you've been closed. So, you know, once you have different buildings, that accumulates to to to to several, you know, tens of 1,000 of of of euros or pounds every month. Then if it's a month, you'd be like, okay. 1 month is $50, let's say.
Fabio:2 months is a 100, then it's 1.50, then it's 200, then it's 2.50. You get me? It's no balling to a rate, Danny. It's, you know and you we we didn't see any end to it. Like, no one could see an end.
Fabio:It's like, when this is gonna end. I'm like and the the worst thing with, tourism, which is the was the last industry to recover because you have different layers. It's not like, okay. The the the bread shop down the road is closed. It's gonna reopen.
Fabio:People are gonna go and buy bread. You have psychology of people going back traveling. You have restriction, tasks, no tasks, all of that. You have airlines who didn't have any more flights, so they need to re put their flights on. You have all those layers, which takes many months, many year to be able to be put in place again in the way that people wanna travel again.
Fabio:And then the remember the testing, all of that. The people obviously were not comfortable. There were not many flights. The airline canceled, all the flights on fire, all of this stuff. So all of that come into play because we you rely on international travel.
Fabio:So it was a nightmare. It was a, like, you could not think of a worst case scenario. That was the it's that, you know, other time worse than the worst case scenario that we have.
Dean:Worst possible thing. Like, the worst possible thing. All your turnover shuts off, and your expenses stay exactly where they are. That and with no certainty.
Fabio:For a year for a year and a half straight.
Dean:For for a no you don't know when it's gonna stop. And every month, I can only I remember those months, March, April, May, we were all like, oh, it's probably gonna be 2 months, whatever. Yeah.
Fabio:Yeah. Correct.
Dean:Do would you say that was the hardest period of being in business? Was that did you did you, like, wanna quit? Do you wanna quit at all? What did you what was going through your head?
Fabio:No. I didn't wanna quit, but, it was hard because what what I was angry because I'm like, I'm in the situation, not for a mistake I made. We made zero mistake. So why I'm in this situation right now? Like, this is unfair.
Fabio:That's how I felt. It's unfair. And the other thing I felt very unfair is like, okay. You're telling me to get out of my house, which is my business. Shut it down.
Fabio:But at the same time, you tell me that I still need to pay rent while you tell me because it's not my choice to get out of my house. How does that make any sense to you? You know? So that was a that was what really made me made me made me angry. And on top of it, you have your own life, because I have my apartment.
Fabio:I have my life to live besides the business expenses. So it's it's it's it's it's all this thing combined, and, you know everybody was alone. I used to be alone myself, so it wasn't as hard as it was for other people, but at the same time you're hitting your head trying to find a solution you wake up in the morning and you're powerless. That's what I hated. You know?
Fabio:You're powerless. You're trying we try to, repurpose the business in a certain way. You're trying to cover some expenses somehow. You know, one is better than a zero mentality, you know, which we did to a certain extent. That's what we could have done.
Fabio:But we were like, you know, we don't know where this is gonna end. So
Dean:I I remember, like, even being in my own property business, which, you know, we we where our worlds cross over a bit. You know? And I think a lot of people who I know who will listen, they are in property in some capacity. Maybe they like have a buy to let and they rent it out, or maybe they're like me and they have a property management business. And I think what you doing, like hostels, you know, you've got to have both of those skills.
Dean:You've got to be able to like acquire assets, construct deals, figure out your legislation. And then the other side, you've gotta be able to, like, deliver on a service to people who book and who are, like, very transactional, come in and come out deal with people and the service and hospitality side of it. And and I know in that world, there's, like, crazy, difficult stresses that people can be stressful. People are stressful and they can be stress inducing. Right?
Dean:And the COVID on top of that is just, like, the most mental thing that someone in your shoes. And I'm sure there's horror stories to no end of people getting fucked by COVID. But one of the things that I've learned from
Fabio:Yeah. We were we were lucky for one end as, I mean, lucky that we have multiple businesses above. We had to let go of one of our main one one that we the latest one we acquire in Lisbon to cover some of the losses because otherwise, we would have gone bankrupt. So it was it was a decision where, like, we were looking because, obviously, I have a my business partner also acquired a couple of, apartments in Barcelona. We were we were talking about, what do we do?
Fabio:Like, do we sell? And that was on the cards. Like, I was ready to sell 1 of my party. I was ready to if we cannot get the money that we want from, the hustle in in one of the alternate Lisbon, which we had to sell. We didn't wanna sell in order to use that money to cover, you know, the 100 of 1,000 of euro accumulated in debt besides obviously putting our own money inside.
Fabio:So but imagine somebody who, maybe in February, put all these savings to open their the it's his dream restaurant. Oh my god. And he only had that. And maybe maybe as a family, you know, and they just put all their saving of their life, him and his wife, to open that restaurant, to open that little hotel in March 2020. And they have nothing else.
Fabio:That's that's even that's why there's always somebody who I've hired than you. Exactly. There was always somebody who I've hired you know?
Dean:I'm kinda in a similar position as you in that sense. I didn't have people relying on me when I was having tough days, and I was losing money every day. It wasn't COVID related, but it was because I had deals that went bad for me. And that's a scary feeling, you know? And I I can only imagine what it was like in your position during COVID and having that uncertainty and and having financial stress.
Dean:Because I think any everyone can relate on some level to financial stress. Like that's not a nice type of stress to feel. So I have the utmost respect for you for sticking that out. And like, if you, if I was somebody listening right now, I might be thinking like, okay, well, Fabio's kind of got into this. He didn't really know what was what was before him.
Dean:He was just doing it. He just went for it. He managed to get through the biggest wackiest 2 year period that will be in our generation. Like, what would you say to somebody now who's looking at you and still thinks, oh, that's that's too far away for me. I I I can't do that.
Dean:I'm not able for that. I don't have that risk inside me. Like, what do you say to someone like that?
Fabio:It's hard because I think you're taking the biggest risk of your life by not doing it. Because the other the what it's gonna do is gonna exactly keep you in the place you are for the rest of your life. And I think that's that's that's the biggest risk, not taking the risk the way I I look at it. You know, people look at this like, oh my God, what if? What if?
Fabio:But to me, the what the worst what if is like staying still in the same place for 10, 20, 30 years, you know, not growing, not learning nothing, not trying to be the best you can be for your own life, what you were set out to be, what you dreamed of when you were 14 and 15, who you wanted to be. Do you really wanna say, oh, my my big dream is to be and work it. And I said, I know a lot of people who do respect my parents. I always work order life at 8 to 9 or 8 to 5 or 9 to 5 and go on holiday once a year and and wait, 7 years old to get attention. I don't think so.
Fabio:I I don't think any of us was born with that dream. And and the the day we get and, you know, all our wishes and dream get put in the drawer, and the drawer gets closed. I always try to remind myself, I gotta do this for my 17 years old self, because I know what I want, and I'll hang out with them, things like that. I always try to to to remind that to myself. I gotta do this for for for for for the 16, 70 years old version of me, you know, and keep going for it.
Fabio:And yeah. So that's that that's all I can say because you can't build it in somebody. Certain things you have it and you've done, but you can you can ask yourself certain question and see that moves you inside to make certain decision. You know, it is scary, especially for somebody who is not used to be in a certain position, people who know how much they're gonna make. You know?
Fabio:And I said an example, like, you know, there is employees for a certain company who have all the know how of the company. They could go and build the same company, do the same thing tomorrow on their own and making 10 times more. And they're not doing it because they rather be there and know they're gonna make x and they're gonna have this many days a week than actually going for a lot more for themselves.
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Dean:It's like the security and the income thing you said earlier. Yeah. It's like people like to be in maybe one side or the other. And I think one distinction I always like to make is that there's nothing wrong. Let's say that is your dream.
Dean:And you and you're like, I actually just want to have a house in the countryside. And I want to have this amount of money coming in. Like, there's nothing wrong with that. I think what I am intending to do with
Fabio:If you're happy like that, That's awesome. You've made it. Tell me that you wake up in the morning, and you are happy. It makes you happy to go to the office, be with your coworker 8 to 5, and being okay to do that. And you you're not lying to me.
Fabio:You're saying, yeah. I'm really genuinely happy, and that's what I wanted. You won your life. Because Because what I want might be different than what you want, you want in your life. But I I think that's a minority of the people.
Fabio:They are able to say, yes. I'm happy doing that.
Dean:And You know? It's I think I always try and make that distinction that, hey. Look. I'm not shitting on somebody who is doing that. This is these conversations.
Dean:This message is for people who do have that in the back of their head. Maybe it's in the way back or maybe they think about it all the time. Or maybe it's just back there and they they don't really face it, because then they know if they face it, they have to actually go and do something about it. Right. And that's a scary thing to realize.
Dean:But it, you know, if somebody's, if somebody's in a place, and they're happy, good for them, truly. I'm jealous. Doesn't matter
Fabio:what they do in that case. That's you 1. To me, if you're actually happy, you can ask yourself that whatever you're doing on a daily basis makes you happy, then you won. You know, there's no, like, am I is better than your side of thing. You know, that's, I'm I'm with you on that.
Fabio:I'm with you on that. You know?
Dean:Right. So let's think about that person then. Let's say they're in a job right now, and they're listening to the podcast. Maybe they're in sales or maybe they're in marketing or maybe they're in consulting or finance or a lot of these jobs that pay quite well, but don't maybe give you the satisfaction that you want. Like, what would you recommend to do like immediately?
Dean:Like they've finished listening to this podcast in the next few minutes, but they've no experience in anything. Like, what would you say them to do today?
Fabio:I think I think they must have everybody got passions. So they must have something they really like or maybe they thought about doing on this, something they love. Because if you go involved if you get involved in things that you love, you put the time needed even if you don't really fill it because it's something that you love. So it's like whatever it is. You understand?
Fabio:Whether it's opening a bakery that you're gonna make donuts because you love donuts. So that excite you, you know? And I would say, obviously, figure out what you like or what you love or what you think you're good at. What you've you might realize that that's not you're good at. And I think I would probably make a list of the things that I know I'm good at and the things I'm not good at it.
Fabio:You know, just to to to, to, you know, make yourself accountable because everybody got flaws. Every everybody got you know, it's just normal. And then usually, it's reverse engineer. That's what I do, how to get, okay, what we wanna do. We wanna open a donut shop in London.
Fabio:Okay. What's the most important thing? We need a location. Okay. Location.
Fabio:How do we go about location and understand how much it costs? Well, I need to contact agents in certain area of London trying to understand how much how much it's gonna cost me to lease that data information. You understand? Because everything else comes after. I think when you start a business, usually, you focus on the things that not really matter as much as the beginning.
Fabio:They don't affect it. But, you know, and it's it's just normal. I think I don't have excitement. Like, you know, people people do that. But I think it's focused on this type of thing.
Fabio:Okay. What else do we need to make donuts? When you start a machine, okay, how much is the machine gonna cost? Let me contact supplier. Let me send email to supplier.
Fabio:Boom. All of that. All these type of things. What are the ingredients? Okay.
Fabio:And we need all this type of stuff. What's gonna cost per and try to get as much information as possible, as much research on the market in the area. Are other people there? How much are they charging for it? Trying to under trying to, you know, analyze as much as you can about the market you're gonna get into it.
Fabio:And right now, you have the Internet, which is a great thing. You can be online and find so much, you know, information and data about all these things. I think that's the thing. I would study the market of whatever you're gonna get into first thing first. You know?
Fabio:And online, you can find just Google or ChargeGPT nowadays and, and really find as much information as possible about that. And see, because maybe something that you thought was a great idea turns out not to be when you actually analyze and then run some numbers and be like, oh, I thought it was this. And always, always analyze anything in a conservative way, never being too optimistic. Never. If it does, great.
Fabio:But always always analyzing on the low side. You know, worst case scenario, bottom line is this. Is is it feasible? Does it make any sense or I'm being too optimistic about it? That's that's that's definitely a great advice.
Fabio:Because, you know, sometime in the beginning when you start things or any business, you're always going to look like, oh, yeah. I can sell this for this. Or I can, you know, have a 200 people a day every day in the restaurant, which is obviously not feasible. But
Dean:I did that myself. I did that myself. I was too optimistic, and I didn't predict my downside too well. And, you know, I paid the price quite literally. So, and, you know, ideally you wouldn't have to make those lessons.
Dean:And I think had I been more thorough and done more research and been the expert, like you just described there, I would definitely be that way. But what I love about what you said there is that it's not sexy, and it's not like it's not like rocket science ever. You just gotta be like, right. What do I need? How do I get it?
Dean:And, like, ask those questions and sort of pull those levers. And it it takes time. It just takes time to do it. It's not gonna happen in 1 month. It's going to take a long period.
Dean:And and that's hard. That long period piece, it can be quite daunting. You know? But I I I love what you said there because it's quite honest. You know?
Dean:And if there's just work.
Fabio:Yeah.
Dean:But I think if you have the why like you have, you've got this why of I wanna go travel. I wanna be free, and I wanna take my mom to Iran. Whoever's listening, like, they might have their thing. And if they can just keep that as the front, they'll be able to do that difficult shit.
Fabio:I agree. I agree that the why is the most important thing. If the why is big enough, there's nothing stopping you. Because every day you wake up, and you'll think about that, and that would drive you out of bed. And to spend those, you know, you work 9 to 5, you come home the 7 to 9 to do research every day for 2 hours.
Fabio:You know, you put in 2 hours, 5 times a week, where there's 10 hours, there's 40 hours in a month. In 40 hours spent on your business or trying to develop or research, you will find a great deal of information that will make you understand, okay, this is, worth a try. This is this is not, and so forth. You know? And, yeah, that's, that that's it doesn't matter what business.
Fabio:Doesn't matter what type of business. You know? It's, the word needs to be put in, and no one else will do it, for you. And the people who will do it, the the the for you that you need to pay for, they're not they don't have any skin in it. They you know, somebody gives you an opinion or consulting.
Fabio:At the end of the day, it's not that money they're gonna be losing. So, you know, I wanna understand. I wanna know. I wanna be like, okay. Yeah.
Fabio:I know why I'm doing this. And, you know, I I I was aware. I just I didn't do it because I listened to somebody who told me, oh, yeah. This is gonna make this much or this is, you know, I think that's very important.
Dean:So what's life like now? You know, you're 10 years into the business or, you know, you're a good stretch.
Fabio:15 years, actually.
Dean:15. Yeah. Right.
Fabio:Yeah. That'll be 15 next May. Yeah.
Dean:So so what's like a day in the life of Fabio? Like, And, you know, how do you feel about like, do you just wake up and just sort of yawn and then get out of bed at 12 and then go pick a country to go to on that stay?
Fabio:Funny enough, that's not okay. I mean, when I'm at when I'm in London, that's it doesn't matter where I'm at. I wake up at 7 in the morning, got my alarm at 7, and I'm out of the door. It's around 7:30. Go work out.
Fabio:Doesn't matter where I'm at. I need that. That's my everything, therapy, call it however you want. I need to go work out. So doesn't matter where I'm at.
Fabio:7, 7:30, I'm out of the door. Come back, and then I get I get on things on my phone. Obviously, the businesses run almost on autopilot since, I mean, many years. So it's more now about, like, if there's a new acquisition or we're trying to expand the business, you know, and there's conversation about that, maybe with my business partner or our manager, then maybe has talked to the architect, which is drawing new plans to the refurbishment that needs to be done in that location or whatever, or look for more opportunities in our field. You know, I have many contacts and, you know, some that write me, some I write them.
Fabio:Oh, by the way, this thing came out as the interest on view. It's in Athens. It's this thing. And I look at it. I'll send it to my partner.
Fabio:Or I have another conversation with somebody, like, for instance, couple days ago, a friend of mine in the Bahamas is Bahamian. And I talked to him a couple years ago about business. And now he came back to me. He was like, I got this guy who's got this land here. Remember the glamping thing that you wanted to do?
Fabio:He said, yeah. In the concept, I think it could work. I spoke to him, and I was like, okay. So I speak to my you know? Every day is a bit different like that, but the structure is very similar, which the time I wake up is the same.
Fabio:Doesn't matter where I'm at. And the things I do first thing is that, and then I fill it in with, reading. I read books a lot, watch documentaries and research businesses, or read about, you know, the markets, the real estate market in different place, or the business, or the hospitality market in different places. That's kinda what, fill my days. You know?
Dean:So what, like, actually motivates you now? Like, you're literally if I was listening to your story now, and I'm like, right, Fabio can literally choose to get up and do nothing. He can travel anywhere. He's got, like, like, very flexible financial position as you put it as well. And feel free to share that if you'd like, but it's somebody listening to this could say he's made it.
Dean:What what's he going for now? Like, what is what's the
Fabio:made it. I don't think in I don't think in business you ever made it because you you fall asleep for a little too long, and everything can go to hell. And sometimes for things that you you're not even in control, like, look what happened. Like with COVID 2020. I'm not saying that's happening again.
Fabio:But, you know, you still need to be focused. You know? And I'm somebody who's focused anyway, and I like to do more. And it's not for the money, as I said, because, we talked about this. Like, you can offer me 5 times more money now, and but I will need to be Monday to Friday in the office, and I don't want that.
Fabio:I'm okay. I don't want 5 times more money. You know? I'm okay how I am, what I built. And if I build some more, that's great.
Fabio:But I don't get driven in the morning by, oh, I'm gonna get this much so I can get one extra bedroom in my place. It makes zero difference whatsoever. I have all I need. You know. And time and freedom, those are the most important thing that you cannot those are the 2 things that I really value.
Fabio:It's more about, I like challenges. I like to be better. I like to do things better. I like to fill my days with things that I find whether exciting or challenging and so forth. So that's what drives me.
Fabio:That's what what what drives me. You know? And to be like, oh my god. You know? That that idea that we had 3 years ago, we actually make it happen live right now.
Fabio:That's great. You know, that's that kind of thing. You know, it's, I I claw my hands to anybody who try to do something they've been talking about and they wanted to do, no matter what the result is. And I tell you, like, a little a short story. The trainers at the gym where I'm where I'm going here funny enough, there's 2 guys, and they were talking about doing a boot camp.
Fabio:And he's talked to me, like, a year ago in Marbella, and they wanted to do this. And it was like, oh, you know, look at this villa. We're looking to do that. We're looking to bring some clients, and that's our idea, whatever whatever. And last month, I think, or 2 months ago, they actually did it.
Fabio:They put it up. And the fact that they put it up, I take my hats off to anybody. Not no matter if they make 1 pound or they lose a 1,000. The fact that they put their work to do it, and they turn whatever they had an idea as a curse to do it, put their own money to make it happen, I clapped my hands and I told them, like, you should be proud of yourself. Because guess what?
Fabio:99% of people in the world, they don't even get to the point. They just talk. You guys turn that talk into a real thing. Yeah. You know?
Fabio:So You
Dean:just try it. You gave it a go. And what you said is is so true. You and and you're a guy who's obviously trying things, and you've you've made some Yeah. Yourself and created this thing.
Dean:And it's it's funny because it's very rarely somebody who is trying something themselves that will have anything negative to say towards you. It's always supportive. It's always like the person who maybe isn't isn't doing something themselves that will have something to say. Somebody who's trying something rarely is that case. And
Fabio:Because because you know you've been there. You know how hard it is and how, you know, the difficulties that you have to even trying to jump. So when they told me about it and I saw it, I was like, you know, you guys should be proud of what you did. And I said that now you realize maybe you lost money. Might as well, okay.
Fabio:We made a mistake here. This cost us a lot more than what we thought. Okay. This we thought was gonna be creating the program that doesn't work. Now you understand what worked, what doesn't, something that was never done.
Fabio:So now you have a benchmark that you can improve the next time. But I suggest for the fact that you actually brought an idea to life, I say you should be proud of yourself.
Dean:I think you've got such a cool story, man. Honestly, I every time we chat, I get pumped up and motivated by it.
Fabio:That's cool.
Dean:You've you've got you've created this thing from nothing. It's like you've you've had no experience. You've just went for it. You've been determined, and it and it's worked for you. It's worked for you.
Dean:You've got this life now that people would kill for. What your life that you've described is something that people who are listening to this would bite your hand off for. And I I hope anyone who's listening is, like, moved by it and also has some practical steps that they can take away from the the the discussion and be like, right, I'm gonna go and research this or I'm gonna go and do this and have that why why they wanna do it as the the guiding north star. So yeah, man. I I appreciate you coming on.
Dean:I appreciate you sharing all your story and sharing all your wisdom.
Fabio:Thank you. Thank you for for for inviting me and having a chat with me. You know? And I hope you inspire other people and give an idea and maybe give that little boost of courage that people would need. And if somebody that looks like you did it, then you can too.
Fabio:If I did it, then anybody can do it because I ain't no Superman. I just don't stop until I get what I want, and I'm not I'm not gonna quit. That just really when people like, what are your, you know, great I don't I don't think I'm super talented at all or super skilled, but guess what? I don't quit.
Dean:Hell, yeah, man.
Fabio:You know? So you can have more talent, but you're gonna you're gonna stop before I actually get to the to the angle. I get to the angle, you stop before me. You know? So that that's really what it is.
Fabio:So and there is so many people receiving right now. Maybe they're gonna be listening. Then they'll they have it in them, and they can exactly do what I did and better me. So
Dean:I hope they can, man. I hope they have that little portion. And, yeah, you've definitely given a lot that people can take away from. And, yeah, man. Like I said, thanks so much for coming on.
Dean:It's been a great chat.
Fabio:You're welcome. You're welcome.
Dean:Much love.
Dean:Hey. Sorry to interrupt the show. Very quick favor to ask you. If you are finding any value or even finding it slightly entertaining, please consider giving me a follow on whichever platform you're watching this or listening to it on. It really helps, especially in the early stage of growth, and I would owe you a big, big thanks.
