#29 - How to Stop Sounding Like Everyone Else - Dan Kelsall
Have you ever put a post on LinkedIn or Instagram and just felt fucking weird about it? Chances are, if you have, you probably weren't speaking in the same way that you would to me if you and I were sat down in the pub together. Now my guest today does this better than anyone else I've seen online. Dan Kelsall's very brutally honest approach to LinkedIn has gained him a cool 70,000 followers and multiple 6 figure online businesses. In the conversation today, we chat about how to make content that speaks directly to your audience, how to get comfortable and confident in the content that you put out there, along with getting better at your sales and conversions.
Dean:I hope you enjoy. Alright. Your consulting business does 20 k there thereabouts, per month. Yet the other day, I saw a post where you posted a toy doll of you Yeah. With some Vaseline and a dildo.
Dan:Yeah. Yeah. I did. I did.
Dean:How are you getting away with that shit and still getting clients?
Dan:You know what, mate? Like, it's I think every client I win is still a is a surprise, and that has been for ten years. The reality is, though, like, is I remember when I first started offended. People said to me, if you call it offended, right, you're never gonna get big clients. If you keep drawing dicks on stuff, you don't get big clients.
Dan:Right? And then and at first, I believed them and I thought, well, we're just gonna have to build this. I can't do a big corporate agency. I'm not a corporate person. I I I can't stand corporate boards and corporate speak and everyone putting these masks on, you know, of of this is me in the week in my little suit and this is me on the weekends, snorting all the lines.
Dan:I just can't be fucking doing it. So Yeah. So I continued with that brand. I mean, even my business partner at the time said we I don't think it's a good name. I don't if it's gonna work.
Dean:How were you so sure?
Dan:I wasn't, mate. I don't have a fucking clue. But I just refused to be anything else. And before we knew it, we had we had huge clients. We had that we we won Entain, which, you know, that allowed us to work with Ladbrooks, Coral, Foxy Bingo, KFC, n twenty six, who are Monzo's main competitor in Germany.
Dan:Mhmm. Killing Kittens, you know, swinging up. No. Yeah. She's a big swinging up if you're if you're into swinging.
Dan:Yeah. But it's but, yeah, we we we we work with huge brands, lots of small brands as well, but but it was it was wrong. It was wrong what they were saying. So so me being myself attracts generally like minded people, and people think that if someone's a CEO at the top of an organization that they they suddenly lose the the ability to have a sense of humor. It doesn't happen.
Dan:Everyone laughs. Right? They might not necessarily laugh at my jokes, but that that's fine. That's not the that's not the person for me, is it? But there there are people everywhere.
Dan:I always get, you know, comments off different marketing directors from from huge brands. I get on the doll one on the on the I did an advertising thing where where I showed the adverts and the the the concepts that I presented to brands that didn't work. One of which was I presented to n twenty six. We were we were on a barge in the middle of the spree in Berlin. It was their summer party that we invited to, and I pitched an idea because they were launching in The UK.
Dan:I said, why don't you put because you're German, why don't you put billboards all around Monzo's offices saying German invasion imminent? You know? And I put that post up, and and and I got, you know, comments and messages off. I mean, I got one of the marketing director at Marks and Spencer who Wow. Reacts to all my stuff.
Dan:You know? That's a really it's a really safe brand. It's for a certain type of person, the older generation. You wouldn't think that sort of person would find my ridiculous shit funny, but they do. They do.
Dan:All of you all of everyone's perceptions about professional conduct, it's it's it's bollocks.
Dean:Not true. We put people in higher places on some pedestal, but in reality, if you were to probably check their lads WhatsApp group
Dan:Yeah. It's probably pretty dark. Check their internet history. Do know what I mean? Everyone's like I don't care.
Dan:This is why I always think, you know, if I meet someone who's who's you know, like, those people who are sickly nice and they don't have any vices Yeah. And they're always drinking a green smoothie and they've never been never get pissed or they never
Dean:Pedophile? Yeah.
Dan:Yeah. Nons. So I mean, you know what mean? But the the the likelihood of everyone everyone has a side to them that that has some sort of vices or a bit of a dark sense of humor, everyone, plus.
Dean:Yeah. Because, like, one of the things Lewis said to me before was that he doesn't give a shit about what he writes because he's not if it's not his ideal client that's looking at it, he doesn't really care. Like, he doesn't give a shit if somebody looks at that and doesn't like it. But, like, if I think about when I'm posting content, I think I sometimes fall into the trap of sounding like everyone on LinkedIn. Do you know what I mean?
Dean:Like, right in my post, like, look at me. I'm, like, doing something really cool and you should believe in me and blah, blah, blah, And it it can you you lose well, I certainly lose in in a lot of my posts how I truly sound. Mhmm. You know? Like, how do you I guess, how long have you been able to sound like yourself?
Dean:Was that something that you always had from the day one?
Dan:Probably, mate. Yeah. I mean, it's probably probably why I always spent most of my twenties in trouble. I I think, unfortunately, some people are more susceptible to fitting in with the norm. Right?
Dan:Because it the everybody cares about what their peers think. Everyone cares about how they're perceived in society. It's just a natural human instinct. But then there are there are people, and I I probably am one of those people that are a little bit of an outlier like I am. I've never I've never really been I mean, my dad's mass massively anti authority, anti establishment, so that's probably been baked into me.
Dan:I've just grown up not really like, I don't see as an example, people people get up in arms about, you know, and and really admire a celebrity. I don't see it's the same thing. There there there isn't one celebrity that I would tell you that I'd be in awe of if I met them. I'd be in awe of some people who've achieved great things. You know, we met some some military blokes, you know, the guys who went through dark the other day that they're going up headrest and do some mad things.
Dan:They've all got various different military medals and things. And I was in awe of those blokes because they're achievements. Right? But celebrity don't do anything for me anything for me. I mean, you know, you've been on fucking Big Brother or you've been on Love Island.
Dan:Like, you're just a fucking gimp. Yeah. You're a fucking person, though. I have nothing but but but you can always tell, I think, the type of person that's gonna really struggle to be themselves outwardly in society by the sort of relationships they have with things like celebrity. If they're one of these people who watches a lot of Zed List crap and is in awe of those people and follows on social media and comments on the post, that person's really, really gonna struggle to be themselves entirely in society.
Dan:And those people are also really, really hard to teach how to write as themselves as well.
Dean:Yeah. Yeah. So you think it's, like, mainly around yeah. Like, that's like, I think as the world has become more digitized and everything's on social media, like, it's put people down a notch a little bit because people seem closer to you now.
Dan:Yeah.
Dean:Like, I see somebody online and I'm like, you're probably a dick. You know, I can I can't even though you've got a million followers, I, you know Yeah? I don't look at you the way my mom would have looked at Tom Hanks in the nineties coming up, you know, like this aura. Yeah. Yeah.
Dean:But it's
Dan:all it's all fake as well. It's all fake as well. I've I mean, I've I was working with a with a with a brand that was owned by the Sidemen, And it gave me not a full insight, but a little bit of an insight into how that all works. And it's all it's it's it's all theater. It's all constructed.
Dan:It's all managed. Yeah. Yeah. It's all bollocks. Those those lads aren't real.
Dan:I'm not even sure they're real mates. It's all bollocks, yet they've got these armies and armies of young people looking up to them, infatuated with them. It's fucking nonsense. Yeah. And you could probably tell them, I'm probably never gonna get another contract with this car now.
Dan:But it's the truth. It's true. It's nonsense. Fucking nonsense.
Dean:So do you think then, like, if we go back to, like, the content sphere, especially on LinkedIn, is that what you would identify as the thing that most solopreneurs like you and I, we have our own businesses, our own consultancies, our own coaching, whatever. Do you think that's what most people are doing wrong? They're just trying to be like everyone else and not actually speaking with their true voice? And if so, how do you find that?
Dan:%. Right. I I LinkedIn is a big thing, though. Like, it's everybody wants to be on there because it's a great place to get leads and blah blah blah. Sure.
Dan:I would argue, right, I got on LinkedIn when it was just people fizzing each other's CVs and job specs, and then I started writing on there. I was early.
Dean:Yeah.
Dan:Really early. Really? Yeah. Lewis was early as well. The audience we've developed now, which has taken years, and and by the way, this is developing an audience from scratch.
Dan:This isn't fucking buying your followers and joining pods and getting to a hundred k really quick like some of you bullshits have done. This is growing an audience that actually wants to see what you're writing. Right? I mean, we got in early. That's why it's really, really hard to do that now.
Dan:That's why so many people are joining pods, right, trying to game the system. Because LinkedIn's got too big, the algorithms have changed, the reach has been limited. Like, that always happens on a platform, and it grows to a certain size. It's happened with Instagram. It's it's gonna happen, you know, or it is happening with TikTok.
Dan:Like, for me, you should be looking for new places to have a unique voice. That's the the the best way anybody new with a new brand can stand out is by look for a place that you think could get big and get big on there first.
Dean:Like an app or like a social media platform?
Dan:It could yeah. It could be anything. It could be anything. I mean, there are so many different marketing channels. Because the other thing people get wrong about marketing, they think they think, you know, you have Facebook ad experts going face you need to be on Facebook, you know, where everyone's audience is on Facebook or you've got fucking SEO experts saying SEO is what will get you the, you know, the holy grail.
Dan:Like, it's all bollocks. Like, everyone just sells their own specialism. But the reality of marketing is it's about finding a channel that can get you the results you want fast. You're never gonna do that on one of the big boys that's already established. It's gonna be it's gonna be tough.
Dan:And it's about finding the channel that works for you and and a place where your audience live. And and by live, mean, they hang out a lot. They they use it a lot.
Dean:Okay. Let's say on that then because you you mentioned a second ago about, like, building an audience from
Dan:scratch. Yep.
Dean:Like and I know now having, like, when I'm trying to construct my ICP, like, who is it that I'm actually speaking to? That's an ever changing thing for me. Like, I I I week to week, month to month, it's developing. It's taking more shape. It's taking more fan like, the foundations are better as to who I think I'm really saying this to.
Dean:And has yours what what's been, like, the developments of yours, like, since you were speaking to them at the very beginning to now? Like, has that changed much?
Dan:Not really, mate. No. It's Same either. It it's it's my I'm a creative marketer. Right?
Dan:So I sit right at the front. I do all your creative stuff. I got build build your ad creative. I build your content strategy. And the beauty of my industry and this is what a lot of people see because they see what I do online, and I get leads, you know, coming through me years.
Dan:And it's it's it's it's because I'm do I'm displaying the skill that I do online. Right? I'm going, I've done this. Here's an ad. Look at everybody everybody's reacting to it, and then that's how I get leads.
Dan:The problem with that is people then come to me and say if they're selling something for $50, let's say, and it's a big software system. They assume that they can do what I can do and just post the post online and they will get leads. It's not how it works. They can see me displaying the actual skill that I can offer them. So it's it's a really easy transaction.
Dan:It's not the same for anybody else. The whole the whole like, it's different. So I've always just posted, and my my ICP has just been anybody with money.
Dean:Right? Okay.
Dan:Okay. Because because what I do and how I write and how I develop a marketing strategy can actually, well, can probably be used for most businesses. You know, I've worked I've had clients, you know, recently that are like boring as fuck that are like, you know, how do I say this without offending them? Like like a salary benchmarking tool. I mean, fucking Jesus Christ.
Dan:How do you sell that? But the reality is is is because I've developed the right systems, I can do these things. Mhmm. And it's it's it's available to most businesses.
Dean:So your ICP then sounds like it might just be the issue that they're facing.
Dan:That's the issue.
Dean:It's the problem. It's the problem you're solving is the ICP.
Dan:Exactly that. Yeah.
Dean:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dan:Yeah. And provide them they've got cash in the bank, I can solve it.
Dean:Cue Bob. Yeah. Yeah. I saw one of your posts actually. You mentioned KFC a minute ago.
Dean:Yeah. And I think it was something to the tune of, you said, they were trying to say that you can get a career in KFC. Yeah. And you said change it instead to jobs for a bit.
Dan:Yeah. Yeah. So they were struggling they were struggling to recruit for their restaurants.
Dean:And then What's a better word?
Dan:Yeah. Easier eats. Fucking takeaway, ain't it? And they they you know, I can't remember what they called it, like, a fucking finger licking careers or something shite. And I was like That's great.
Dan:Alright. I straight from the bat straight straight off the bat, I thought, hang on a second. Like, I don't think the majority of people getting jobs in your restaurants are after a career, mate. I just don't. Right?
Dan:You might get one in there who's a lifer. Right?
Dean:But
Dan:there ain't many. You don't see many old women working in the back flipping, you know, dunking fucking chicken, do you? So it's Yeah. It's it's and I and and we did our research, and we looked into it properly, and then we wrote a whole campaign around it, which was just stuff like, you know, if I tell anybody, you you work here, we'll even give you a wig and a fake a fake name badge. You know, just stupid stuff.
Dan:Yeah. Yeah. It would have stood out. And I think from the whole campaign, they only ended up using one ad.
Dean:They didn't take it?
Dan:Well, no. They took they took they took one ad from the whole campaign Yeah. Which was about, you know, we're not expecting you to bathe in gravy or get a KFC tattoo. We just don't know if you want a job for a bit. They did actually take that ad.
Dan:And that ad Yes. That ad was housed on their homepage for a good few months and was a was a good performing ad for their recruitment drive. Yeah. And was really, really well received. But they they they were still adamant that that if they put this campaign out, they were not only gonna put off people who wanted careers at KFC, of of which there are about three in The UK.
Dan:Right? But they were also gonna offend people who had careers in KFC Yeah. That that already had a career in case of KFC. So so but but I guess true. Again, I don't think people are that uppity about it.
Dan:I just think they're overthinking it.
Dean:I don't think anyone, no offense, to the KFC workforce who works there is, like, super, like, chuffed about that or, like, like, fucking proud, you know, like, it's not like a bad thing, but, like, I think what you highlighted there is just, a bit of awareness that, like, hey, look, anyone who's applying for a job here, like, they're probably not thinking of it as a career, you know.
Dan:The students. Right. I'll tell you who they are because we did our research. The students mostly. Yeah.
Dan:They they are, you know, part time moms and dads who need a quick job. Right? They are people who have another part time job that needs some to fill in the rest of their time. Yeah. Right?
Dan:These are the people that are looking for jobs. That is not a career. Yeah. And that is and when you're going on KFCs
Dean:band aid.
Dan:When you're going on KFCs, though, you know, six I think we we looked at the average I can't remember exactly what the average employment time was, but even the average employment time in the restaurants isn't great, obviously. Because you get someone who goes in for a year in college and they fuck off travelling. It's just natural. Yeah. It's not a but they're looking at it as a negative thing, like, do we how do we increase our tenure with our with our business?
Dan:You're not gonna eat, mate. It's a fucking chicken shop.
Dean:Own it. Yeah. Just own it.
Dan:Own it. Yeah. No. That's exactly what most businesses this is one of the argument I have with most most businesses is I have the argument because they don't they don't have self awareness of who they are as a brand and how they're recognized. And that is why most of their content and ads don't work because they don't see the way their audience see them.
Dean:Are you finding it hard to make content that feels good? Are you struggling to close clients consistently or even at all? Maybe you don't even have a service yet, and you're struggling to figure out what it is that you can do for the world. These are all very often symptoms of a much deeper problem that maybe you just don't believe in yourself yet or know what your value is. This is where I got stuck for a long time even when I was making content and closing clients consistently.
Dean:This wouldn't have changed unless I started to work with a mentor, someone who not only had the experience I was trying to cultivate, but who was able to see my value in a way that I wasn't and help steer me to that same perspective. This is the exact mindset shift I now focus on with my one to one clients before we do any of the other stuff. Because once we get your perspective in the right place, all the other sales, content and offer building will just happen naturally. I only work with a small number of people one to one because I like to give a very bespoke service. So if you'd like to book a call with me to see if we'd be a good fit to work together, click the link below and have a look at that brief.
Dean:At the very least, I'll give you some free advice and you can go on your way or we may even end up working together. I look forward to seeing you over there. Yeah. Like, I mean, when I like I even say the same to my team. You know, I say very honestly to them.
Dean:I'm like, look, guys, I know this is like, you know, this might not be somewhere you work forever, but like at the end of the day, like and I know it's just like kind of a place to get money and like this this business that we all have here supports all of us. And that's okay. You don't have to, like, wake up every day excited for work. But I want you to be like, taken care of. You want you to know I'm still here for you, you know, even though it might just be something that you're here for a year or two, you know, that's that's okay.
Dean:I'm not gonna delude myself into thinking you're here because you just love my business and you just can't wait to spend the rest of your life here. Mhmm. And I think they appreciate that. I think they appreciate that.
Dan:%. Most people aren't I mean, nowadays, you know you know, with the whole gig economy and stuff and, you know, apparently, the fact that gen gen z are lazy and all the rest of it and whatever people say, they're not, by the way. You know, people aren't sticking around in jobs. And and if and it's okay to have a patchy CV where you've tried lots of things and it's not worked out or you didn't like it. May may I've had I've had since I stopped working for people.
Dan:I mean, my my job history was horrendous anyway, but since I stopped working with people, I I I reckon I've had eight business attempts.
Dean:Mhmm.
Dan:One of the one of those well, I could be now two, three of those now are successful. But it's been a graft and a lot of fucking stupid things I've done and failures and things, but it's okay. Like, it's okay with your jobs as well. You're okay. It's okay to go into a job for two weeks and go, this is shit.
Dan:Go get a new one.
Dean:It's alright. So let's let's take it back a few steps there and go back to ICP's content, solopreneurs, because we've got down the KFC rabbit hole there, which is rabbit hole I enjoyed going down. Yeah. But do you think anyone who is like that? Let's say they're kind of like still in a job and they're not quite making the move yet.
Dean:They haven't quite like said, Okay, I'm going to start doing something or maybe going to attempt this.
Dan:Yep.
Dean:Like, do you think everyone should be attempting to make a personal brand, or should they just focus on getting some fucking sales?
Dan:No. Fucking hundred, mate. Personal brand. Number one shouldn't be a fucking term. Right?
Dan:It's just putting yourself out online like it's not big. It's not that big. And I'll tell you what. Right? There are so many personal brand experts and pushing people to do this whole personal branding thing.
Dan:There was two problems with that. Number one, if you're, you know, as dry as a falafel wrap, you're gonna struggle to have a personal brand. Yeah. And number two, if you are going to the effort of building a business and you're putting all your effort into building a personal brand, good luck fucking selling it. Someone's gonna buy your business.
Dan:You think they're gonna buy a business that no one's ever heard of, but they've heard of you. It's not gonna happen. Like, nobody no like, most of my marketing is to do with building a brand for a brand. No one does that anymore. There's so many fucking of these new marketers coming in going, oh, I'm a personal branding expert.
Dan:It's not a thing. Shut up. Yeah. Yeah. Steven Bartlett didn't have a personal brand until he he'd started growing Social Chain.
Dan:Mhmm. And that's a really bad example because he's an idiot, but it's it's the reality of it is, right, is this this whole personal brand thing can be complementary. Right? And it say if you're a freelancer, it's good to have because you can bring in loads of business. But if you are building an actual business, focus all of that energy on building that business or brand because that's the valuable IP you're gonna build.
Dan:Your IP don't mean shit.
Dean:Yeah. I think we're, like, let's say, the online business space then, which is kind of like the natural stepping stone for a lot of people who are just bridging themselves out of employment, let's say. Wow. I think it seems like you're saying those people maybe need to focus on it a bit if they wanna get freelance clients or that. But, like, if you're building, like, a straight up business, like a brand, a clothing brand, a whiskey brand, whatever
Dan:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dean:Focus on that.
Dan:%, mate. If you're if you're if you're an individual like I am now who who's come out of the business and that's why I may I'm my main earner, it makes sense for me to go online and say a lot of shit and stuff. But
Dean:Yeah. Yeah.
Dan:When we were offended, when I was building offended, I spent a lot of time building offended's brand, doing billboards that are crazy, doing all this.
Dean:And a
Dan:lot of that I would push through my own personal brand. So it's good to build a personal brand, you know, for a for a year so that you can feed that audience towards a brand, but it's the lack of feeding it towards a brand that is my problem. Like like, I I was absolutely buzzing when we got one of our first clients that offended through the offended social media channels. I can't remember which one. I think probably the LinkedIn company page.
Dan:But we and they didn't know who I was.
Dean:No way. I was
Dan:absolutely I was over the moon. Man. Because if we ever went then to you know, I I I sold my shares on my list and buy out because my business partner was fucking Bellend. But But the but if I had gone to sell that business, right, the reality was is that's what people would be asking. If we buy this business, is it critical that you're here?
Dan:Yeah. Otherwise, not gonna buy it, they? Mhmm. Yeah. And I was buzzing with that, and and and people don't do that.
Dan:And there's so many agencies. I was chatting to them the other day about online and they were asking me about because they thought I just sold offended. And I was just spending it, it money and buy it. They were saying they're trying to gear up for a sale on their agency. But I had to be pretty bummed with them and say, I've never fucking heard of your agency, mate.
Dan:Mhmm. They said, Bob, you heard heard of me. Yeah. I've heard of you. You're not selling you.
Dan:How are you gonna sell how you gonna sell something that no one's fucking heard of?
Dean:That's true.
Dan:It's just a service based agency. The the most value when you build a service based business, right, there's there's a few things that are valuable, and they're not the things you think. Most people think contracts are valuable with clients. They're not. Contracts when you're a small business aren't worth shit.
Dan:If a big client decides to tell you they work with you anymore, don't matter whether you got a twelve month contract, they ain't working with you anymore. Right? So so that's nonsense. The biggest thing the the the biggest thing that you can do is your systems and process and operations. Right?
Dan:Because people will buy that. If your systems are unique and they are better than what somebody has or there's something that somebody that one is in need of, it's gonna cost them a fortune to build the same systems and processes. Right? So they will buy that it for that. Right.
Dan:But the biggest thing so most agencies, for instance, will sell for four times profit as a shit agency. An agency that's built a brand, however, can sell for anywhere up to eight times, 10 times profit. Right? People think, oh, yeah. Building a market agency, I'm gonna sell it for millions.
Dan:Most people don't they're lucky to sell it for a for a, you know, open the cup.
Dean:Right? Yeah.
Dan:So it's it's the the reality is building a brand. If you are in a service based business, recruitment agency, market agency, you wanna sell that thing, you better be working hard to build a brand because that's that's the thing that you're gonna sell it for.
Dean:Yeah. I think, like, if if if you look at, like, the solopreneur world, a lot of the people who are trying at least to break off into that world, like, think setting aside big brands for a sec, like, somebody who's, like, trying to just go it alone. Right. And just earn their own money and are trying to start posting content. If I came to you right, let's say I said, Dan, I want to post content.
Dean:I want to quit my shite job. I hate what I do every day.
Dan:Yep.
Dean:And I'm going to provide a service and I need to promote content Yeah. To deliver some leads to the service. But I'm afraid of what people think of me. Uh-huh. What would you say to me?
Dan:I'd say keep your job. That's that's it. That's my answer. Keep your job.
Dean:You think that cannot be overcome?
Dan:It can be, but I'm I'm not a therapist, so I can't help you with it. Really? You have to do it yourself. Yeah.
Dean:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dan:I'm not I'm not in the you know, I think people get you know, when you when people talk about fucking personal branding, you know, again, I hate that term, but I think people get mixed up with personal branding and building a personality. There's a there's a there's a big difference. And you need Yeah. Yeah. The thing is you you are essentially building a personality that's away from your own personality online.
Dan:It's an online personality. It's like me online is not exactly me. It's the me that I have learned over the years that I know people want to see. There's a big difference. So then people always ask me, like, when people attack you online all the time, when they go you know, when you have people slugging you off and people, I've got all sorts of crap.
Dan:Right? Why doesn't it bother you? And I'm like, well, because that's not me. They're attacking they're attacking this thing that I've created to bring me a money from my ass. You can say what you want to him.
Dan:Yeah. Yeah. And I know most of those people online behind a keyboard aren't big enough to say it to me in person. Right? So so and I So you
Dean:never had to, like, overcome this fear of of of of judgment?
Dan:A little bit. You always have to do it a little bit, but that person asked that you you can't have a you can't have a a someone who's absolutely terrified of putting themselves out there. So someone who couldn't stand up in the front of a room with hundred people and say, this is me. Mhmm. It's always gonna be difficult to fucking write content for them.
Dan:And and and I had a guy I had a guy who I had a guy who was a a recruitment director. Right? And I remember this is when I was I was first starting off, and he came to me. Said, I'm building this recruitment agency. I wanna start with my own content.
Dan:And and so so what I normally do is sit down and I do a bit of a research session with them. I do I get all of their ideas and things out of their head so I can then figure out how I can get this crossing content. And this guy had the wildest opinions he ever seen in life.
Dean:Just fucking
Dan:mental. And I thought it's a dream. It's an absolute dream. I can I can work with this guy? I put all his content together, and he was going.
Dan:I'm not joking, mate. Know, I've never seen numbers like it. Considering he had barely any followers on LinkedIn because of his opinions, because of the hooks I was able to write, mate, it was every every single post was blowing up. Right? But after a while, he contacted me.
Dan:I mean, he's getting business from it. He's got it doing well. You know, feeding feeding followers over to his company page. And he contacted me and he'd had because I didn't hear from him for for a couple of weeks, weirdly, and it just just went quiet. And he contacted me and he'd had a had a stint in pretty much in an institution because he'd struggled to he'd struggled to deal with the backlash of saying his opinions.
Dan:It it it immensely affected him that badly. Yeah. Because he hadn't managed to disconnect from his online persona. Yeah. Which is you know, it's dangerous.
Dan:Online is dangerous. If you take it all to heart, it's dangerous.
Dean:Yeah. Because it it like, it's totally understandable why, like, you you know, you you you get a shit comment, and it's it's like it's almost as if the whole you feel like the whole world feels that about you. Yeah.
Dan:Yeah.
Dean:Yeah. Everyone fucking hates me. I'm a I'm this. I'm that. Yep.
Dean:And and it's just hard to discern. So, like, I mean, it's kinda like, it's impressive that you can be that distant from it.
Dan:You know, you gotta do. You gotta have a bit of fun with it. Best thing, Lewis does it well as well. You know, have a bit of fun with it. Look at that person and come up if if you can there's nothing better than a witty reply.
Dan:Nothing feels better than or even just wind them up. Mhmm. Just just just post You
Dean:gotta lean in. Yeah. Right.
Dan:The more engagement that post gets, the further it's gonna go. Right? So keep people arguing on it. Sometimes, I I think your job with content, either as a brand or as yourself, is your job is just to light the fire. Let everyone else burn themselves.
Dan:I absolutely live for putting a piece of content out and watching people get into mad arguments underneath my post. I don't join in. I just leave them to it. Great news. And I I live just I'm gonna scroll through all my lunch going, you know, just laughing my head off because people are just and they're going in.
Dean:Yeah. You know,
Dan:going for the jugular on each other. I just think, well, it's my job, though. Yeah. You know? It's not it's not my some some of the I'll tell you what, one of the one of the if you start treating it like a game, it's easy to get over.
Dan:Right? One of the one of the best things, techniques I use is I will generally, right, I know I don't look at it, I'm quite a balanced guy. Right? I would I would I would take I would take a balanced argument that I have in my head that I believe. So I might yeah.
Dan:I think this all real, but then I also think, you know, you know, devil's advocate. I also think this. What I'll do is I'll shave one side of it off.
Dean:And just go all in on devil's advocate.
Dan:Yeah. I've been that. Yeah. Even though even though I don't completely believe this bit. I've been that, and I'll and I'll put it out.
Dan:I did it the other day with a post on marketing agencies. You know what? Marketing agencies are dead. That's what I said. Do I think there will be a place for really good marketing agencies still?
Dan:Yeah. Probably for a few years. Didn't put that in my post though because I've put that in my post, and that that that sort of settles the argument, didn't it? Yeah. And it and I angered a lot of other marketing agencies.
Dan:A lot of lot of marketing agencies on us in there were really, really angry at me. Oh, yeah. But what they don't realize and what they should realize as marketers is that's what I was after. I did it on purpose. And if you start doing things on purpose, you're not as you're not as asked because you know what the outcome's gonna be.
Dean:That's true because I think, you know, you've just highlighted something on my brain there that, like, I think with me, right, if I look historically at the way I've posted content, I posted it in a way that I'm, like, almost trying to avoid that.
Dan:Yeah.
Dean:I'm, like, apprehensive of of feeling that, whereas, like, you are looking at it differently. You're, like, saying, give it to me, and then therefore removing its power.
Dan:It's exactly that, mate. And, you know, a really good way of doing that, little technique you can use is everyone tells you to define your target audience. Right? This is a common thing in market. It's where everyone should start.
Dan:Right? One thing that I get people to do if they're struggling with this sort of thing is I get them to define a target enemy. Right? K. A target enemy is really valuable because you don't have to actually necessarily go after those people.
Dan:Right? But a target enemy is generally people who are never gonna buy off you anyway.
Dean:You know
Dan:and you know they're gonna disagree. So so they're never gonna purchase. Who gives a fuck?
Dean:You know? For me then. Let's use this for me. So, like, someone my like, let's say my ICP is somebody who's, like, irritated, like, really, really bummed out of their nine to five and they wanna leave. Mhmm.
Dean:Who who would be my enemy? Somebody who loves it, I guess.
Dan:Yeah. Corporate Colin. Yeah. Corporate Corporate Colin, the life.
Dean:What am I saying to Corporate Colin then?
Dan:Your life's fucking meaningless, mate. I don't I don't know. Figures went out. Piss him off. Do you know I mean?
Dan:There's no
Dean:Yeah. Right.
Dan:Okay. It's okay. The backlash, you're never ever ever gonna sell to everybody. Right? So why are you trying to appease everybody with the things that you say?
Dean:So maybe I should just lean in and just tell everyone their job is shit and stupid.
Dan:Yeah. If you're if you're working in a job, you're a dickhead.
Dean:Yeah. Yeah.
Dan:You don't necessarily believe that, but you can say and not this is the thing. I mean, a lot of
Dean:That's so true.
Dan:Not everybody is gonna be as controversial as some of the stuff I've done online and things, but there's something to take from it, though. Yeah. If you I agree. If you gamify it, you start separating yourself from it. Right?
Dan:And if you do that, it's just a game. You know you you've already predicted the outcome. I know if I put out online market agencies are dead. I know already. Don't tell me.
Dan:They're coming for me. So when they come for me, I ain't bothered. I knew it was gonna happen. That's what I did. It's me.
Dan:I I'm like the fucking puppeteer. Yeah. You're all idiots. I fucking got you.
Dean:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha.
Dan:I know I know it sounds like a really because this is the thing that people don't admit in the market industry is that marketing and advertising, since its inception, has always been manipulation. Right? We are manipulators of people. That's my our job as marketers and advertisers, ninety percent of the time, is to sell people stuff that they don't fucking need. Right?
Dan:Most people will never admit that, but that is the industry we're in.
Dean:Nobody likes that word, man. Manipulate.
Dan:No. They don't. But it's true. Yeah. It's true.
Dan:Yeah. And we used to we did some adverts once to hire copywriters, and and one of the adverts that people were really pissed off about were was we hire liars. They're really angry about that. Like, people got really up in arms about it. And and it but it's the truth.
Dan:Right? I mean, you you you do I think every product that I've advertised and marketing marketed to people is good and worth their money? No. Most of them, probably not.
Dean:Yeah. Yeah.
Dan:You might still my job. Yeah. I've lied about it. I'm a liar.
Dean:Yeah. And you paid well for it.
Dan:I
Dean:am. Yeah. I like, when I think about this in the realm of sales, Right. I spent eight years in tech sales. I'm very grateful for it in the end as much as I hated it and wanted to kill myself.
Dean:Like, I I have acquired some good skills there. And and I always found that I always noticed the way I showed up to a call with something that I kind of half was in versus something that I actually really blocked. Yeah. I was like, oh, no, I fucking know this person could really benefit from this. And it's easier to kind of show up in that and deliver that.
Dean:Does that make sense? Do you get me?
Dan:Yeah. Like, if
Dean:I back what I'm actually bringing to the table here, I I show up better. I show up more authentic. I really bring
Dan:Oh, yeah. A %. The energy percent. Like, I mean, I I I mean, every single creative the good this is the difference with a good marketer and the and the shit ones. Good marketers do it for the marketing element of it.
Dan:Right? So if I get a really boring product that I have no fucking connection to and no interest in, it's about changing your mindset as a marketer and going, well, this is a challenge. So if I if I'm able to sell the boring stuff
Dean:Bring it on.
Dan:Bring it on. Yeah. Give me a challenge. Right? It's fucking it's really easy to sell a, you know, I don't know, penis extensions.
Dan:Right? Which are a thing I I learned the other day. It's not it's not just spamming.
Dean:I've never heard about them.
Dan:No. It's a thing. But, yeah, there's a lot in the group, Tony. There's if you, know, you can you can cut a section of your penis or something, and there's two just two inches hidden in every man's peat. I don't know.
Dan:Wow. Yeah. Mental. Anyway. I'll put it
Dean:in the description.
Dan:But yeah. But but but if I'm if I'm you know, I I I thrive on the boring products like I I I do. And also the the good thing about selling a boring product when you're a marketer is is generally the boring industries are the easiest to stand out in. If I'm going selling some mad celebrity backed skincare range on TikTok, the competition and the level of creative and the wild things that they're doing, I mean, it's it's fucking nuts. Right?
Dan:It's gonna be a tough gig, that. Yeah. I'm going selling a piece of accountancy software, all I have to really do is change the tone of voice to speak like a person I've already beat off the fucking market. So true. So true.
Dan:You know? And it's about for me. If you're if you're a marketer, I I if I didn't enjoy marketing as a, you know, as a medium, then then I'd find it tough. I have to enjoy the challenge of marketing something and getting people results. That's what I so so so you are right, but I think in my industry, it's slightly different.
Dan:You have to enjoy marketing, not the products. 90% of products are sold and advertised. I couldn't give a fuck about.
Dean:It's such a it's a very good distinction, actually. I never thought of it that way. How do you think about sales? Like, are you because, you know, as much as you're good at marketing, right? For a client to buy off, you they've got to come and speak to you one to one realistically at some point, I'm sure.
Dan:Yeah.
Dean:How are you how well versed would you say you are at the craft of selling? A one to one sales call?
Dan:Well, I get
Dean:Or do you just show up and just call
Dan:them on? Yeah. Most most of them. It's it's odd with me, mate. You get two types of people.
Dan:You either get people who are apprehensive because they're like, I don't know where this guy's gonna be. I don't know where he's gonna go too far for us, but there's something in it. Or I have people that come on and it's like they just they think that I what what I'm gonna appreciate is them just swearing straight off the bat and they're like, hey, you fucking dickhead. You're gonna you're gonna buy our fucking you're gonna advertise our fucking products or what you'd and then you're kinda sat there going, I I don't even swear that much. Yeah.
Dan:Don't know why you think that this is how I communicate, but I don't. But most most of the time, mate, it's an easy sell for me because I've because I've because most of the things come through what I do online, mostly, it's just the clothes for me.
Dean:Yeah. They come in very, very warm.
Dan:I'm not I'm not doing any outreach. I'm not DMing people. I'm not I don't even chase. I I I I have known from past experience that for me, working with people who come to me as an inbound lead
Dean:Mhmm.
Dan:I close them, and it's it's all hunky dory and they understand what I'm offering is is much easier than even someone coming in, me sending them proposal. And then if I chase them for that proposal, I'll ask them, oh, when are coming back to me? By the time we've actually started working together, the relationship's always already already a bit frayed. I'm not saying sales is useless. Sales is really, really valuable when you're trying to especially when you're trying to scale.
Dan:But for me for me, am I good at selling? I I I don't think so. Do I like selling? Probably not. But am I good at closing people that I've already warmed up online?
Dan:Oh, yeah. But but that's easy.
Dean:Yeah. You you you have a different like, you're marketing led in that sense. Whereas, like, if I think of my business that I scaled, like, was by brute force. Yeah. You know?
Dean:Because I was doing it while I was in a nine to five, and I had to manage that a little bit, you know, and manage my time. I couldn't exact post everywhere while I was in my nine to five. So I had to be quite bullish and make the sales happen and go in cold. And that was just what eventually got me out of there. Right.
Dean:But I think as my long term vision and certainly what's happening for you is your marketing is doing the selling for you. It's priming that person so that they don't even need to be sort of they're already convinced of your expertise and your value by the time they get to that call.
Dan:Is that right? But that doesn't and and this is the thing as well, and this isn't me slugging off sales either because I I I have seen and worked with some extremely good salespeople. I have seen like, most marketers slag off things like DM cadences or email sequences and say that they're shit and they're useless and all the rest of it. Right? It's fucking nonsense.
Dan:Are there anything that can be done really well? I've seen some work with some salespeople that you do DM cadences with hilarious subject lines and which which is just a part of marketing. Right? Still I Outreach is still And they'll do these three DM sequences and send them some funny stuff and blah blah. And and works a treat.
Dan:Like, you look at Louis Hanford, who does all the Lumpy Mail stuff. Right? This guy sends coconuts and fucking arms in the post and stuff and writes a handwritten letter and stuff. It's outreach.
Dean:It's It's marketing.
Dan:It's marketing. It's marketing. Because you know what? The the the thing that that I've always believed anyway is you always get marketing sales at loggerheads, or or everyone says they're at loggerheads. It's the same thing.
Dan:It's Yeah. It's all the same process. It's how do you attract a customer, and how do you eventually get them to spend money with you? The whole thing is Yeah.
Dean:Marketing and sales would
Dan:be one thing. They should work together. It should be a it should be a in in my opinion, if you've a company, the market and sell it should be the marketing and sales department, Not marketing over here, sales over here, sales getting all the fucking high fives because they're not gonna commit all the commission while marketing a
Dean:guy. Yeah.
Dan:Yeah. What about us? What and they're like, well, what are you doing? What what leads have you got us without realizing they've done they've got awareness over here, then Sue Sue saw an ad campaign over here, spoke to a dog, who spoke to a cat, spoke to Barry who Barry bought them. You know, it's it's it's difficult to track, but I think they should be working together as a team.
Dean:I always felt bad in sales, man. The money you earn in sales is actually fucking insane.
Dan:Ridiculous. Right?
Dean:Insane.
Dan:Yeah. Yeah.
Dean:And, you know, I'd walk around the office, like, kinda like like, you know, I'd see people in other departments and I just think, like, fuck. Like, I'm way overpaid here, you know, versus what you're getting, and you're working three times as hard as me.
Dan:Bonkers. And then you got a little copyright already smashing out ads and on $25 a year. Mad. Crazy, mate.
Dean:Yeah. It's crazy. I always say to people, right, as much as I bash my experience with being in sales, like, if you want a good life where you work four hours a week and earn over a hundred k a year, get the fuck into tech sales. Yeah. Like, it's unbelievably good.
Dean:Yeah. Yeah. I I actually almost just wish I liked it sometimes.
Dan:Yeah. Yeah. I worked in it for a little bit. I worked I worked for for for Laurence Jones, the the gropey CEO of UK Fast Dude, who's now in prison.
Dean:Oh, brilliant. Yeah. I never wanna be described as groupy.
Dan:In the showers, mate. He was yeah. I fucking ate him for the minute, mate. He was just a cock in in interviews and stuff like Spelling. Fuck.
Dan:But but, yeah, I worked in selling hosting solutions for a little bit. Hate it. Wasn't particularly good at either. What was
Dean:that, like, door to door?
Dan:No. On the phones. On the phones. Yeah. Give them past gatekeepers, blah blah blah.
Dan:All I'd do is, you know, get my get my phone time up on the board so nobody question me by ringing people's answer machines
Dean:Yeah.
Dan:And just leaving them a really long stupid answer machine
Dean:Yeah.
Dan:Message. So so I was just always I wasn't very good at it, and I didn't have that kind of patter. Mhmm. You got somebody who speaks like me on the phone, it sounds like I'm gonna rip you off. But it it's difficult.
Dan:And I just couldn't get that professional tone and pattern. It's just not me.
Dean:Well, it's kinda you've come to the phone call with your handout, you know. You're coming for something. Whereas if you have the marketing led approach, which is like somebody consumes your content, the difference in that phone call is just Oh, it's massive. Insane. It's massive.
Dan:But you know what? It it makes a difference. Because I've had I've had recruitment clients, for instance, who who would would do marketing, then they would ring one of their key clients, someone that they were trying to get in touch with, and they would go, oh, is that so and so? Oh, I see your post all the time on LinkedIn. Straight away, you're in.
Dean:Boom.
Dan:You're in.
Dean:Yeah. I even found that as well as as I kind of progressed out of my job and started to lean more into content. Right.
Dan:Yeah.
Dean:For my business as soon as right. So when I jump on a call with a potential client, the difference in that conversation, if I had previously to that call, showed them my business Instagram versus, like, the in the beginning of the first year, I had no Instagram and I was going in really cold and just having to tell my story, like, hey, I'm still in my nine to five, blah blah blah.
Dan:Yeah.
Dean:Fast forward, like, a year later, I'm out of my job and things are going really well. I just showed them that business page and my personal page with all my personal content. Like, they're like, oh, I see you doing all the videos.
Dan:Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's it's it's
Dean:a difference. But it's at the end, like, you know, if you're still in a job, like, that's that's a while away. You kinda gotta go brute force, in my opinion, unless you're able to post content and tell your boss to fuck off anyway.
Dan:Yeah. And I mean, what you can do, though, in all situations is you can make your outreach more interesting. Right? Your boss ain't gonna see your your funny DMs you send people. Yeah.
Dan:You I don't understand why people don't play around with this sort of stuff more. Like, why aren't people doing ASMR fucking voice notes to to people? Being always like, oh. Yes. Hello.
Dan:Hello. How how are you doing? You know, that sort of thing. Like, it's funny. Just just mess about with it.
Dan:Yeah. There's loads of things you can do with Outreach. Same with email marketing. Right? One of the one of the most opened email emails we we ever had in the campaign was we sent an email that said the subject line was something like your subscription to bondage.com.
Dan:Brilliant. I'd
Dean:be clicking that email for sure.
Dan:Amount of people that panicked and opened it. Right? But we've some really funny responses. We've got some angry responses too, fuck them people. But but just because you're building something while you got a nine to five, it doesn't mean that you're not able to to think outside the box and be a bit clever with it.
Dan:You can still send people that stuff through the polls like Louis Sanford does. You can still fucking send them weird DMs. You can still send them hilarious emails. What are you waiting for? There's loads of fucking channels.
Dan:Why does everybody think channels are just outward facing channels that you put out out to the world in social media and everyone can see Not everyone needs a million followers to sell a load of shit. No. It's just it's just a nonsense thing. Yeah. You know, I've got a reasonable it's not not big in the grand scheme of things, but I got a reasonable size audience for LinkedIn.
Dan:They're all fucking engaged. There's 70,000 fucking knob heads there for for some reason. But but they they I was selling just as much when I had 5,000 people on there. So so it's not it's not just because someone sat on with a million followers this is why people need to stop you doing people's fucking courses and bollocks like that. I've got a million followers.
Dan:I'll tell you how to get here. That person with a million followers probably ain't selling more than you are. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck them off.
Dan:It's not a thing.
Dean:It's not a thing. You and this is a big reframe I'm trying to tell the guys I'm coaching at the moment. It's like, guys, you don't need to, like, conquer the industry to replace your fucking job income. That is, like, five clients, 10 clients depending on what you're doing. Yeah.
Dean:Very little. You know? And it's just like you can you can as you said correctly, I couldn't couldn't agree more. Like, you can get by and live a good life on a few hundred followers.
Dan:%. And I think one thing, though, with with with people going out to do it, you have to want to do it. Right? So so if you're Yeah. There's a big difference between hating your job and wanting to build a business.
Dan:Those things aren't aren't the same thing. Right? If you fucking hate and despise your job, it's not the same thing as wanting to build a business because not everybody's capable of building a business. They're just not. If I looked at if I looked at most of my mates, they're all lovely lads.
Dan:None of them are gonna watch this anyway, so fuck them. But most of them are incapable of building businesses. They couldn't do it. I know them as a person. They couldn't do it.
Dan:They couldn't physically do it. They don't have the they don't have the patience. They don't have the stamina. They don't they don't have the ability to think outside the boxing order.
Dean:Yeah. I agree.
Dan:They don't have the ability to survive on nothing. They need to stay in a job. But, however and and a lot of people hate the job. That's just the nature of having a job. Right?
Dan:I hate my job sometimes too. Right? But but having the the itch to start a business to when you're thinking, I could do this for myself here. Yeah. I'm I'm working in the, you know, recruitment, but I know rather than me only getting 20% of this fucking deal I've just done or whatever the fucking commission structure is, I could have that whole $8 of that fee.
Dan:Right? If you're feeling like that and you sat there I'm not saying jump out of your fucking job now. You might you're only fucked. But I'm saying
Dean:Start trying.
Dan:You start to thinking about how you go are going to do it smartly.
Dean:Agreed. Agreed.
Dan:And that's it. That's the that's the I think that's the that's the because there's a lot of online, like, online about every you know, entrepreneurship's become become Good denied. Exactly. Entrepreneurship's become like, you know, something that everybody should be striving for apparently and blah blah blah. I'm telling you now that not everybody's built for it.
Dan:It's a it is not the fucking, you know, grass is green type scenario
Dean:Can be.
Dan:It's gonna be.
Dean:But it might not be.
Dan:It can be eventually. And therein lies the risk. It can be eventually. But let me tell you now, that first year is fucking hard, and it's a lot harder than the job you're doing. A lot harder.
Dan:Yes. There you you you might feel more you might feel freer and more at home, but there are dark fucking times. There's dark fucking times for for for me. There's been dips for me so many times where I thought, what am I doing here? Yeah.
Dan:Why am I doing this? It'd be so much nicer to have a fucking animal
Dean:with I wish had a job.
Dan:Well, people nobody tells people like that. They all tell me there's this big glamorous thing that you're gonna be going and doing all this. No. The reality is it's gonna be hard, but if you've got the itch, right, you until you until you go and do it, you're never gonna scratch it.
Dean:Bottom line, is it worth it?
Dan:You know what? I'm having a good week. Fucking well with me.
Dean:I'm having a week. Mean, no.
Dan:It's no. It is. It is worth it. It's worth the freedom. Even, you know, even if the earning potentially is less, it's your your fucking money.
Dean:Thank you, man.
Dan:You you ain't lying in everybody else's pockets.
Dean:I actually just like it as well because I'm like, I got my business to this size where it's like bringing in 6 figures, I'm like, that is perfect. I actually don't want it any bigger. I would actually rather the time that it gives me.
Dan:Yeah. You'd have to scale it. You'd scale nothing. Like, I know, the the reality of of of working for yourself is can you afford what what what are you who are you supporting, right, for one? Like, the the stress for me of having a kid and a partner that I you know, my partner's more than capable of looking after herself, but but but the stress for me is is is who I am, trying to provide for my family and things.
Dan:It's a lot more stress nowadays for me than it was when I was back in my twenties, I was doing different businesses. You know, I'd spent time making Vaseline in in in in my fucking kitchen. That's right. Sell make my own organic Vaseline, which I did terribly. You know?
Dan:But taking those risks and spending that money and getting those products, and I had a clothing brand, and I had an app business, and I had a fucking all this shit. Doing all that didn't feel like a risk at time. Had no money, but I had no one relying on me. Whatever I earned was mine. Yeah.
Dan:I had a shit little flat that I was living in. There's there's no big it's no biggie. Now with a with a fiance and a little lad that I wanna give the best life to, every every penny or everything I lose feels like I'm taking bread off their table. Right? Right.
Dan:And the pressure's a lot different. So so and this is the other thing that other people have to understand. A lot of this is dependent on your own situation. Right? If you if you the older you get, the more commitments you have.
Dan:If you get used to if you have a really high paying job and you've got used to a really, really extravagant lifestyle, you really have to ask yourself whether you're prepared to go backwards. Yeah. You have to.
Dean:Yeah, man. I think, you know, it's it's it's a fairly balanced argument you gave, but there's a lot to consider in such a venture. Right?
Dan:But %. Hundred %. But for a lot of you, if you got that itch if you got that itch you know what you you know what it's like? You know when you you know you know when you're you're working a job you hate. Right?
Dean:Oh, yeah.
Dan:It's it's I don't think. I think once that feeling sets in, it's almost you know, it's near impossible to get rid of it. Right? So that's why counter offers, I think, don't work. Some counter offers, you should you should never stay.
Dan:Not because of any other reason, but because of the fact that you've already hate you already hate your job. A bit more money ain't gonna make it better. No. No. So it's a lot like that feeling when you have the itch, but it it is still a different feeling.
Dan:If you but when you have the itch and you think, I wanna do this for myself, and I really think I you know, I'm you're the type of person that wants that freedom that that that that wants that control. When you've got that itch, I don't think you can get rid of it unless you you go and fucking do it. Like, I just don't think you can.
Dean:Yeah. And I think it's the two things that stood out to me that you said. You know, if you just have persistence and if you just have patience, it it just will work, whether it takes one year or ten. Like, it just will happen.
Dan:You know? It might not be your first, but you you can do all sorts of stuff. I mean, you know, like I say, Vaseline, clothing.
Dean:Get the Vaseline going. Yeah.
Dan:Yeah. Clothing. I did a protein subscription brand before they were a thing. I had a video app for recruitment before that was a thing. I developed an app once, which was used to it's called Pecklin.
Dan:He used to go on it and used to you used to tap this chicken on the head. And, yeah, it's depending on how many times you tapped it a day. It's just a random amount of time. You'd lay an egg and you get a prize.
Dean:Amazing.
Dan:So weird that he didn't take off. But but but there's there was a journey of me trying different things and trying to get to Mhmm. The point where I found something that, obviously, is gonna make me money and make me happy.
Dean:Man, this has been great. Love this. I love this, Jai. We we got into some good shit. I appreciate you coming on.
Dan:Just good stuff. It's alright if you say anything career or anything. Don't think so.
Dean:I think I think we'll release it. Fingers crossed.
Dan:It was a good month.
Dean:Sick. Oh, man. That was fun.
Dan:Yeah? Yeah. Was nice. Nice one. Did you have fun?
Dan:Yeah, man. It was a Yeah. Yeah. Was a yeah. Like therapy.
