#24 - Leaving Career in Law for Purpose - Madeline Miller
Hey, Madeleine. Good to have you on.
Madeline:Thank you very much for having me.
Dean:So you're living out in LA now?
Madeline:I am. That's right. I'm originally from Melbourne, Australia, but I've been living in the US for almost 10 years. 10 years this year.
Dean:Wow. I don't know why you left Australia. I sometimes ask myself a question.
Madeline:Yeah. I guess I'm starting to sometimes ask myself as well, but yeah.
Dean:Yeah. You know what I was thinking just as we were talking before coming on? It's always kinda funny when you know somebody online and you watch their content, and you kinda develop this, like, one way relationship with that person. And it's it's purely through a valve where you only view them and they have no idea who you are. And it I always find go ahead.
Madeline:No. No. Sorry. Finish.
Dean:Yeah. I I always find it quite refreshing when you meet that person, and then you're like, oh, you actually are like that. And I thought that with you before we came on.
Madeline:That that is so funny. It's so funny to think that I'm that person because I have relationships with people like that online, obviously. I watch their content. And now there's people that come to me and be like, I watched all your videos. And yesterday, I wrote a comment on someone who reposted one of my LinkedIn posts, and he was like, oh, I'm fangirling that you responded.
Madeline:And I was like, what? Like, am I is there, like, a parasocial relationship forming now with me? That's so wild. Anyway
Dean:Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because you you do show up You're you're effectively in that person's life.
Madeline:That's so that sorry. I've not really thought about it that way, so that's sort of weird. But, I I mean, it's great in a way if I'm being helpful, but, yeah, that's funny.
Dean:Because I think about creators that I follow, and I'm like, if they're consistent, as most creators are, who are, like, well followed, I'm probably seeing them most days. And so therefore, they're kinda, like, in my day to day, which is it is very odd to say that, but they are. And you, as a content creator, are not in theirs or other way around maybe.
Madeline:That is that is that is crazy. I mean, I post on LinkedIn consistently 3 days a week. But now and that's like my, you know, my my let's call them my skits. And then I also now post a little bit more because I'm starting to promote a new book, etcetera, etcetera, which we can talk about. So I'm starting to do more just made a camera in my living room, you know, a little bit more raw.
Madeline:So in a way, I guess I'm only going to be inviting more of that kind of relationship building.
Dean:So going back to you being in LA and leaving the, promised land of Australia, why did you leave originally? Did you think there was more opportunity in America?
Madeline:Yeah. I did. Like, I so I've been a lawyer for several years, and it had never really been quite what I felt like I should be doing. And, again, I go into this in my ebook that is launching next week, so there's a lot more about my story there. But the short of it was that I ended up becoming an entertainment lawyer in Australia, which was great because that's kind of the goal I'd set.
Madeline:But Australia is still quite a small industry, and I've been doing it for a couple of years, and I really thought, look, if I'm gonna go all in, I might as well go big. Right? Let's go to Hollywood. And that was also coupled with the fact that I wanted to I always wanted to complete a master's program in the US. I don't know why I just had.
Madeline:I'd want I'd like that idea of higher education in the US, and I'd always felt it was out of my reach and then somebody actually somebody I was dating at the time was like why don't you just do it? It was such a simple sentence and I was like oh well, yeah, you know, and then once once you decide to just do something, you find a way. And, you know, financially, I found a way. Like, I took on debt and all of that, but I yeah. So I moved to the US to study, and I ended up picking UCLA, so that's in LA, obviously, because they had a master's program that focused on entertainment law.
Madeline:And I was like, well, if I'm gonna do it, I may as well have, like, a through line to put me in the best position to be able to get a job, afterwards. So that's sort of what precipitated the move, but that was the goal to stay here and try and get a job in Hollywood.
Dean:Wow. So you just thought Hollywood was the mecca for being in law?
Madeline:I mean, as an well, in the as an entertainment lawyer, I think to get that experience is invaluable. Right? Like, I really just wanted to see what it was like. I wanted to work on big pictures. It's a different system here.
Madeline:It's a studio system. In Australia, it's very government backed, which is great, but, you know, it's it's much more like government money financing film and TV. You've obviously got a lot of commercial TV, but the film industry is here. Right? Like, studio pictures, big budgets, talent.
Madeline:Now I've since worked for the James Bond franchise. I was in London, like, you know, but even then, like, the producers are in London, but the studio backer is is here in LA. So, you know, like, there's always gonna be a nexus back to LA or the or the US. I mean, less so New York, mainly LA.
Dean:And so for me being a complete dummy, can you please explain what is the difference between regular law and entertainment law, and what is noteworthy about that?
Madeline:Yeah. Sure. I mean, it's not a dumb question because I think a lot of lawyers wouldn't even know, and I only really know because I've I've done it. But, I mean, effectively, it's a form of commercial law. It just covers a lot of different parts of law all situated in the film industry.
Madeline:So and there's different things you can do within entertainment law. I ended up doing more, like, the financing and production side. So Sure. You know, a lot of it was to do with, like, financing deals. A lot of it has to do with negotiating talent deals.
Madeline:So, you know, really, your contract law, employment law, intellectual property law, I mean, a whole range of things, but specifically situated around filmmaking. Now there's people that do distribution, so they'll look at but that's contracts at the end of the day. There's obviously you know, when you'd be when you're in a film like I was the actual production attorney for James Bond, so that's much more hands on. And that could have been, like, reviewing the terms and conditions for the lease of a helicopter. Like, it's not all, like, sexy and exciting.
Madeline:Location for sure. Yeah. Like but but at the end of the day, that's just contracts. Right? Or just understanding contracts.
Madeline:So it sort of sounds like it's specialized, but it's really not. It's like a lot of different types of commercial sort of base law, that center around, you know, making movie or distributing a movie.
Dean:Yeah. Makes sense. And there's probably so many components that go with that. And when, when you, so you came to America, you wanted to get into law. You wanted to be in the Mecca in Hollywood where all the magic is happening.
Dean:What compelled you then once you've gotten to this place that you've traveled like so far to get to, to then leave and set up your own thing? Because that's you you you you you got to the place you wanted. Like, why leave?
Madeline:Yeah. So like I said, I'd never really felt at home with being a lawyer. I went to law school at 26, and it was really driven by this desire to feel like I had a thing because I felt like I hadn't really accomplished anything that I had accomplished stuff, but nothing really strongly vocational. I think in my head, I'd always been interested in criminal law and social justice. I'd also always been interested in film and media, and I sort of was like, maybe I could blend the I don't know.
Madeline:I mean, I just did it right. And it was very the the program I did was very commercially oriented, so I never really felt at home in it. You know, I come from a family of public sector people, like I didn't know anything about corporate world. So I did it. And then with I like to tell people, you know, within the first five years of being a lawyer, I changed jobs 5 times.
Madeline:So it didn't really provide the solution or the sense of purpose I thought it would, but it gave me some stuff. Like, it gave me it definitely skilled me up. It gave me some really great opportunities before I became an entertainment lawyer. I went to the UN in Cambodia, and I was interning at the war crimes tribunal thinking I might pursue that path. You know, I worked for government.
Madeline:So it was I was lucky to have all these opportunities, and I don't dismiss those opportunities. But it still never really felt like this is it. This is what I could see myself doing for the rest of my life. So then when I sort of created this path of being an entertainment lawyer, I was like, okay. Well, let's just go big.
Madeline:Right? Let's just, like, see see what you can do with it. Maybe that will make you feel like you've made it. And to an extent, it did in a way. Like, I struggled a lot with the work here because it was just so intense, the sort of situation I found myself in.
Madeline:And it really challenged me, like, emotionally as as well as intellectually and had me thinking, you know, even more deeply about what is this all for. Like, what am I working for? You know, at first, it was just like work work work work work and there was definitely a necessity. Like, I was bound to this job for my visa. I also financially needed it.
Madeline:I was, like, living paycheck to paycheck. So when you're in that zone, you're just working, working, working. And then when it sort of calms down a bit and you realize that nobody really cares that you work that hard, you're exhausted. You you know, your ego feels a little bit better, but not like I didn't it didn't feel I didn't feel like deeply satisfied. Sort of some of these more existential questions crept in about, like, what, like, what do you really wanna be doing with your life?
Madeline:What are your skills? What is your purpose? Now that's not this end of the story, that's not when I, like, was, like, cool. I'm gonna give it up. That's when I went even harder and pursued the James Bond, like, employment.
Madeline:But that was great. I mean, again, like, that was a really incredible experience. I traveled all these different countries, worked on this incredible film, did a lot of new stuff that I hadn't done before, so a lot more promotional partnership agreement. So, again, like, expanded my world. But I guess in a way, it felt like I was successful and still felt somewhat unfulfilled.
Madeline:So so that's sort of the story arc of how I landed to my juncture when I made the decision to leave. So it wasn't, you it wasn't overnight, but it was over a series of years in a series of experiences and it gets in a way sometimes you can become really successful. But when you still got this like gnawing feeling that you're not quite doing what you should be doing, I mean, you need to listen to that
Dean:The whole time you were saying that, I was just nodding because and it just reminded me of my exact journey. And the journey you hear so much of people who are in really well paid jobs. In my scenario, it was tech sales like a lot of people in the world now because every tech company needs people to sell their software.
Madeline:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Dean:But it's deeply unfulfilling for me and for a lot of people. And you get so far, and it reaches that point. Because I I jumped a lot of jobs. Every year or so or a year or 2, I would go to a new sales gig. I'd feel excited for a bit, and then it would wear off.
Dean:And the same questions would creep up. And it can only last so long, I think.
Madeline:Yeah. And you're right. Like every there is that dopamine hit or whatever, serotonin type of skill, like challenging yourself in a new environment is a really good way to feel good for a while because you, you know, the that growth edge is or that that stress or that uncertainty is where you really can kinda grow. And I don't think as a human being, that's a bad thing. But I think if there's this pat I always like to think if there's a pattern in my life, like, I'm the sole cause.
Madeline:Right? It's not anything external. The pattern is me. So what can I learn from that? Like, if I'm really truly being introspective and honest, like, what do I need to listen to myself about?
Dean:That was one of the things you said in your interview with Voyager actually is something I snippeted and kinda ties nicely into what we're talking about here. Like, obviously, I know the fast forward version of this, and we're gonna get into your career now, your coaching, how you're doing your content, and all that stuff. But just in the in the to use your word we you used before we got on camera, the genesis of you getting into this venture. You said on that interview, it wasn't until I started learning or leaning rather out of the do more mentality, more work, more hours, more sacrifices, and leaning into the things I could control, like understanding my values, drivers, and triggers, that things became a lot clearer and, subsequently, easier. I thought that was brilliant.
Dean:Oh, Oh, great. Thanks. Because a lot of at least in I I'm speaking from my experience, which was I'm kinda just following the path everyone else is. I'm paid too well, too well such that I can't turn away from it. And I'm not really prioritizing what I actually care about.
Dean:And it just eats away. It just eats away. And I think if we focus on just even one or all of those things that you've said, you might start to find that.
Madeline:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's so much good stuff you've said there, but I think I think it's you said something like, you know, I'm not focusing on what I care about. I think the problem is that we lose sight of what we care about.
Madeline:We don't create space to really interrogate what we care about. We don't really know. And the the further we get into our career and the more busy and more stressed and or more money we make, you know, the like, the further we get away from really being able to work that out. So it's the slowing down and giving ourselves the space and the tools to which is, you know, plug what a coach can do for you, the tools to really think about what that might be. And it doesn't always mean completely disrupting the life you've created.
Madeline:It might just mean, you know, a sort of sideways pivot or, like, adding or bringing something else in or just even changing the way you're showing up at work because I think oh my gosh. I I could go off on so many tangents. Do you want me to run off on 1 or did you have a look at the follow-up?
Dean:I'm ready.
Madeline:I mean, this is a much more macro sort of discussion now, but I think in in the workplace, generally, we lack forms of good leadership. So I think what happens is that we get into the work, and unless we are deeply investing in ourselves or unless our company is deeply investing in really positive role modeling of leadership, we just pick up bad habits and we don't really have the space and time to develop or even think about what good leadership is. And so as you, you know, progress in your career and you continue that way, it becomes harder to do the work you just said to think back like what do I want? Because we're just surviving. Like we're just we're just getting through surviving.
Madeline:And so it might not even be that we hate our job. It might not even be that we hate our vocation. It might be that we kind of oh, it sounds a little bit extreme, but we might hate how we're, like, showing up. Right? Like, we won't we won't actually hate how we're being.
Madeline:Yeah. And that was sort of how I felt. I was like, I don't want yeah. Sorry. Go on.
Dean:No. I was gonna say I totally get that because I know when I show up in a way that's, like, subpar to whatever I'm doing, I feel shit about myself. Yeah. And then next day, I get up and I have a to do list of things that I know are high priority or high value, and I execute on all of them. I feel so much better about myself because I just did what I said I was gonna do, and it was stuff that I wanted to do.
Dean:So I couldn't agree more.
Madeline:Yeah. Yeah. So exactly. It could be this is the thing. Like, I think we talk a lot about, like, burnout and overwork, but there's is other kind of work, which is like underwork.
Madeline:That's how I felt in my first 5 years. I didn't feel like I was doing anything. I wasn't I was not overworking. I wasn't stressed because I had too much work. I was stressed because I was, like, very confused.
Madeline:I felt underutilized. I didn't feel like I was meeting my potential and I was scared that this wasn't where my potential lay or I was scared that maybe I didn't have that much potential because I wasn't really enthusiastic or super good at anything I did. So it's, you know, it's it's complicated. The other thing I would say, we got me running on with that example about what you just said there about, like, how you're showing up. For me, when I was in that particular, like, Hollywood workplace environment for the first couple of years, it was incredibly hard work and it was very, intense, like, without needing to go into all the details.
Madeline:Like, there wasn't a lot of support going on, you know, we had to do all this stuff and I was thrust into the middle of something and I had just had to, like, survive And that's all very well. I know we talk a lot about, like, grit and, you know, growth and everything, but you shouldn't have to like, that shouldn't be like a badge of honor. Right? Because what happened was that I got very good in my skills, but I was not managing myself or other people well. Like, I was impatient.
Madeline:I was irritable. I was stressed. I couldn't switch off outside of work. And I don't like and that's when I said, like, I had to be like, I don't wanna do this. Like, I don't want this to be me.
Madeline:I don't want to not be ambitious and not achieve and not learn new skills. I do want to do all those things, but I don't want to do that. If the only way to do that is to behave like this and feel like this.
Dean:I know exactly how you feel. And and one of the things you said that really stuck out to me that I'm gonna make a note of is underworked. Underworked. That is so good. Because we we need I I feel like you've touched on a need we have, and I'm not gonna say it as poetically, but we need to be useful in some way.
Dean:You feel like we contributed something.
Madeline:100%. No. I totally agree. I mean, I have this formula in my coaching AI air. Right?
Madeline:Alignment, influence, and resilience, and it's based on the the premise. The first the first pillar is is alignment. Right? And that's based on this belief I have not just from my experiences, but observing people around the world for 20 years in a number of different workplaces. Like, we all need to feel like we have purpose and value in the work we do.
Madeline:And purpose does not necessarily mean passion. It doesn't have to be our passion. It also doesn't necessarily have to be, like, social justice, life saving life, you know, planet saving stuff. It just we need to feel like we're doing something that we're doing well. We're getting recognized for.
Madeline:We enjoy. We feel has purpose or value. If we don't have that, it's I mean, there's actual evidence now that if you have that what they call it, like, misalignment. If you have that misalignment, it's like now a leading form of burnout. So it's funny.
Madeline:You think burnout is just working too much. It's like no burnout can also just be working in stuff that is not the right thing for you to be doing that you don't feel like has any purpose.
Dean:Was that what happened to you?
Madeline:Before I made this week. Yeah. Like, I think my I don't think I was burnt out for the 1st few years of my career, but I was I was Searching? Like yeah. And I was churning, you know.
Madeline:And and and I was feeling increasingly worse about myself because I was like, I don't have a thing. I don't feel like I'm good at anything. Like, any and I I would switch to all these different jobs that I'd never get in deep. I didn't so I wasn't the best. And then when I came to Hollywood, like, I was suddenly like, oh, no.
Madeline:I'm not rising. Right? But then it was the other type of burnout. It was like, oh my god. How do I do all of this?
Madeline:I am being worked to the bone kind of burnout. So I've had both. Yeah.
Dean:So you then decide to go into coaching, and I wanna understand how you, like, have grown your following, like, LinkedIn. Like, let's we'll get into LinkedIn. But let's just zoom in on coaching now that we're kinda talking about the transition away to more purposeful work. I'm curious how coaching made itself known to you.
Madeline:Yeah. So, I mean, I'd always been I I thought about this stuff a lot. Like, work had played a really complex role in my life, like, in terms of how it had shaped my identity and also led to a lot of personal development. So I've been thinking about myself within a a work system and sort of the bigger picture of, like, what is work? What what do we do it for?
Madeline:And also and also, like, organizational systems and cultures because I've never really had good leadership. I mean, I've had some nice bosses. I've had some great mentors, but, like, I've never really been in a within an organizational system that I was like, that worked well. You know, good players thinking it through, making it no. And I thought and I've been working in that point for almost, well, over 15 years, like and I was like, okay.
Madeline:That that's a problem. So this stuff was sort of the stuff that, you know, I always say, like, a good sign of do like, what you might wanna do is what you're always thinking and talking about. I was always thinking and talking about this stuff. And, and actually and a friend of mine had been doing coaching. She'd had her own really impressive career.
Madeline:And this was a few years ago and there was quite a boom in it. And she had said, you know, if you wanna get into coaching, I think you'd be good at it. I could probably, like, get you a client or something. I think she did get me my first client, and I was still working. I was, like, I have my business here consulting.
Madeline:I was still doing work for James Bond and a couple of other companies. So I it wasn't a full time thing, but I've been doing so I've been coaching clients individually since 2021. So that's sort of how I, like, got into it. Just, like, put my foot in the water. And then when you start coaching, you go even deeper.
Madeline:Right? You learn from your clients. You join more dots together. You do more of your own reading to really consolidate your ideas and thinking. And then I realized that one of the sort of sweet spots I had was for those people that were maybe 5 to 8 years into maybe a bit less, but, like, sort of their mid career, like, not the most senior executives and not people that hadn't yet found a job, but those people in that sort of sweet spot where they're like, they're either like, how do I'm stuck.
Madeline:I can't move forward, and I don't know how. Or is this really what I wanna be doing? Right? That that kind of, yeah, existential, like, quest that those questions that they've been maybe suppressing were starting to really bubble up all the time, and I landed really well with them. Like, I found that that was a really sweet spot for me.
Madeline:So that's why I developed my coaching platform to be designed for Gen z and millennials. Now it's not exclusively for them. I do coach 1 on 1 clients who are older than that, but I really wanted to take the focus away from senior leadership because I feel like they're super well served. Right? So many coaches are going there, of course.
Madeline:Right? This way they the money is, etcetera, etcetera. I wanted to try and come up with a platform that made those principles of executive coaching more accessible and more relevant to people that really need them now because a lot of coaching, I think, is done the wrong way. It's sort of like a badly run health care system where we're solving the disease once it's happened. We're not like treating it preventatively.
Madeline:And I'm like, well, we should be focusing on the next generation of leaders. Sure. Like someone might say, well, I don't have the power. I'm like, no, but one day you will. And then you will be a better leader for tomorrow.
Dean:On those people that you're coaching, I'm just picturing you and your first one when your mate had told you to, like, go and give it a go. And what I'm what I'm thinking is what I'm imagining is the level of imposter syndrome that you might have had in that period. Because, like, when you try something new and I speak to people who try their first businesses a lot, and they're telling me what they're going through. And and I and I really appreciate those messages. And imposter syndrome is a very common thing.
Dean:So, like, if I was at the start there and I was maybe taking on a new business idea or thinking about it, but I I just thought to myself, oh, I don't have the qualifications. I don't have the experience. I don't have this, that or this. What would you say to me if that was that was me?
Madeline:Well, I don't have any qualifications as a coach. I mean, it's not really like becoming a lawyer. It's not like you have to study to be a coach. But, yeah, there are sort of programs out there I don't have. I think if you really have an idea of something you wanna do, that's probably a reason why you have that idea.
Madeline:Like I said before, like, if you find that you're always thinking about something, talking about something, reading about something, that's a pretty strong sign that it's where there's a passion, interest, and aptitude. So I think in that way, you've got to trust your intuition. If you're drawn towards something, they'll there's a reason. And I think it's always if you are gonna consider a career pivot, whether it's to a business or to an actual employment offer, like, think about is it something you're drawn towards? Like, because, you know, like I said, most of my life, I wasn't really drawn towards what I was doing, and there was that constant tussle.
Madeline:So if there's if when you're making a pivot, you've gotta kinda be making a pivot for a reason. Right? Like, there's gotta be a reason why you wanna switch into these other things. So I think trusting that intuition and that spark is the first thing. And then really being, like, honest about what you need because some things will require a qualification and accreditation, others won't.
Madeline:So, you know, don't like, I do I make a lot of risks. I take, you know, I take a lot of risks, but I I always do them in a kind of, like a what's the word I'm looking for? Like, what's the word I'm looking for? A calculated way. Like, it's a calculated risk.
Madeline:It's not like I'm not irresponsible. And I think if you're gonna make a career pivot, you can't be irresponsible, but you do have to just also throw a bit of caution to the wind because that's where like, when when you really put it all on the lines what I've business, and I mean everything, like financially, security, everything. When you put it on the line, that is when you find out how truly resourceful you are. Right? If you don't make the risk fat like, the the the what's what's the word?
Madeline:Like, the balance. I can't think of the word. Anyway If the balance is don't make yeah. Like, if you don't make if you don't make the risk sort of proportionate, like, high if you don't make the risk high enough, you probably will be complacent. So you've got to put a little bit of pressure on yourself in my mind to really thrive.
Madeline:Yeah. Anyway, so I feel like I ran a little bit.
Dean:No. I say that a lot, Madeline. I always say
Madeline:you
Dean:should well, on the one hand, right, financially, I wouldn't say, like, expose yourself too much financially. I'm a big advocate for as somebody who got fired from their job prematurely while working on their business. I, as you might be not surprised to hear, am an advocate for bringing your side income up a little bit and then leaving. However, taking risk in general, I am a big advocate for. Because as I've said a 100 times on this podcast, if you risk nothing, you risk everything.
Dean:And it requires you to just have a little bit of skin in the game.
Madeline:Yeah. I mean, I think now that I'm an entrepreneur because really I am, like, in terms of how I wanna be scaling my business, I do think there's an entrepreneur mindset which is a little bit risky and scary and some people don't have it and that is okay. Like, we don't all need to have it. Right? Like, not everybody needs to be an entrepreneur.
Madeline:So and I think my like, financially, for example, I didn't really think it through, like and I did finish my job a bit premature. Like, so I did put myself and have put myself under enormous pressure. But for me, that's what I needed for my growth. So I'm not out there. I don't wanna give anyone financial advice.
Madeline:Like, do what you need to do and, like, you know, if you've got a family, like, you know, everyone's got their own set of factors. But for me, removing that safety net created an enormous amount of stress, but made me, like, really, really hustle and resourceful. Like, it it strengthened my my self belief in a way that I don't think anything else could. But I say that on the basis that I've done it before. Like, I've given up my job.
Madeline:I've moved to Cambodia to intern for free with no idea what the job prospect would be, and then I came back and increased my income. I took on $70,000 worth of debt and moved to the US and work you know, studied for a year and then paid it back, tripled my income. So this time, you know, every time you can I'd like you can up the stakes just a little bit more because I've done it before. And that's why I think in life, it's important to take certain risks and you keep the stakes low. You know, if this is your first time for these people that might be wanting to quit their job, if this is the first time they've ever done something like this, like, keep the stakes low.
Madeline:Like you said, maybe just start our side hustle. Right? Because the more you take this kind of risk in life, come through it, the bigger the risk and the more you can increase the stakes each time. This is definitely the biggest ivory ever increase my stakes. And I'm just, like, determined that it's gonna work.
Madeline:Like, there's no other option that it other than it's gonna work.
Dean:And one of the things you said there was, like, resourcefulness, and you realize how resourceful you actually are when your back's to the wall a little bit. I'm not saying quit your job now and, you know, disregard your income. Regard your income.
Madeline:Like, this is not life advice for anyone yet. No financial advice being given here.
Dean:None. None whatsoever. However, what I am steadfast on is that each of us has an untapped level of resourcefulness. And I, like you, figured that out when my back was against the wall, and I was in mountains of debt after my business went completely south. And that was in my 1st year, very scary 1st year.
Dean:Whole other podcast I could do on that. In fact, I did. But one of the guests who was on this podcast, and he just reminded me of something that he said. His name is Neil Sands, creator of many, many businesses, multimillionaire, incredibly good speaker, like, beautiful speaker. And he said 2 of the most important things in entrepreneurship are persistence and resilience.
Dean:Mhmm. Keep in showing up and just rolling with the punches. That's it. And I think that gets lost.
Madeline:Yeah. I mean, I would say
Dean:Go ahead.
Madeline:Yep. No. No. I I completely agree. Like, it to me, it's consistency.
Madeline:It's the consistency to like, I've been enrolled in this very expensive sales training with these women in America in this like, women completely different to me. Lots of mompreneurs, everything. But there's a lot of personal development work they do there and I I listened to it and I'm like, no. This is really smart. And a lot of it's rooted in, like, the bible.
Madeline:I'm not religious, but there's a lot of wisdom in the bible. Right? And there's a lot of these sort of analogies from the bible and from personal development, which is around, you know, like, you plant the seeds now and you have not like, you see nothing. You see nothing, but you're planting them, you're nurturing them, you're tendering them. And then there's this growth.
Madeline:And obviously, when there's the growth, people like, oh, look at that person. They're so successful. It's like, yeah. But, like, do you know what they were doing for years years before where they had no idea either what they were doing, how it would pay off. They just had to believe it would.
Madeline:Right? And they made mistakes. Like, I've I'm a year. I'm not even really a full year in, like, business really, like, without other income, but, like, maybe 6 months without any other income. And I have to say, like, I've already learned in 2024 that you will lose money, and you will spend money on things that didn't return, and you will make mistakes.
Madeline:But all of it is learning, right, for next time. Every time I make a mistake mistake or every time I go, well, that was a complete waste of money or that didn't turn out, I'm like, cool. Tick it off because now you know.
Dean:Love that. Absolutely love that. It's all data. Right?
Madeline:All data. And it's and and I always go, like, stakes are still low. Like, you know, yes, you lost a little bit here. You did but, like, that is a lesson that you are meant to learn because one day, that's gonna be a much bigger margin and you're not gonna f it up the way you just did. Or you're not gonna trust that person when you're gonna ask that question.
Madeline:Sorry. Go on. I know.
Dean:I think we've got a bit of a lag, but it's good. So so if I was at that point and I knew there was something in my intuition that was feeling something that was calling me, I'm fearful. I'm afraid of taking the leap. I'm afraid of my boss finding out. I'm afraid of it not working out.
Dean:I'm afraid of what my friends might say. I'm afraid of posting it online. I'm scared. I'm basically scared.
Madeline:There's a lot of fear. Yeah. What
Dean:because these are some of the most common things I hear all the time. Like, the the it's the same typical type of things that keep people caged in, and they're all very soul. But as you, who is someone who went past those and kinda went on anyway without any real experience in coaching, Like, what were the skills you actually needed to develop to make it to where you are now? Like, the most one of the most important things that carried you.
Madeline:I mean, there's practical skills I've had to learn and then there's mindset, and I think the thing I had to really develop was the mindset piece. I I invested in myself. Like I said, I enrolled in this program that I couldn't really afford to learn sales because I knew that I I guess that's one big thing I could say. Like, I knew that without sales skills, I have no business. Right?
Madeline:And I I don't care what you do. You need to be able to sell. Selling underpins everything. So and most people don't like to sell. And that's the difference between, I think, businesses that succeed and those that don't.
Madeline:I have a lot of people who I know who run businesses, and they're beautiful, and they've got great products, but, like, they can't sell. So I think I think the biggest thing you should do if you're feeling all of those things, I mean, there's the mindset piece, but there's also, like, be humble. Like, let go of your ego and be like, what don't I know? Because I was a business person. I was a lawyer.
Madeline:I thought I'd be really good at business. I have good business instincts. And then I started running a business, and I was like, oh, there's so much stuff I don't know. And I'm not gonna, like, get in my own way about the fact that I don't know it or pretend that I don't know. I'm just gonna dive in and learn.
Madeline:Right? So I put myself in rooms with people that I wouldn't really otherwise interact with. I, like, let go of some of my judgments and, like, limiting self beliefs around, like, how I you know, even my value system. I mean, my values are still my own, but, like, I sort of adjusted them to allow new information in that I can filter through. So I think you've gotta let go of your pride.
Madeline:I think a lot of it's pride and ego, actually.
Dean:What do you mean by pride?
Madeline:Well, you know, some of the examples you gave in terms of, like, what will people think of putting aside, like, what like, what will my boss think? Will I get in trouble? I mean, that's a separate issue, but what will people think of me? You know, how about like, that's just your pride. Right?
Madeline:And that's that's not valuable. I like, I was an entertainment attorney for the James Bond franchise. Now I'm a career and leadership coach. One sounds way cooler than the other. Right?
Madeline:Like, it's not it's not sexy. It's not like people like, oh, that's so cool. You know? But people were always saying, that's so cool, and I didn't wanna wanna talk about my job because I was like, but it's not me.
Dean:I had the same thing with sales. I kind of just very when prompted with the usual question of, oh, what do you do for work? I'll be like, work in sales. Anyway, what about you? And just move on quickly.
Madeline:I was saying, I didn't wanna say I was a lawyer because I got but I'm not really. Like, I I I really I actually have all these interesting ideas. You know? And, like, that's just that again was my pride. Right?
Madeline:Like but it also was a sign that I wasn't doing the right thing because I feel like you should be able to turn up and, like, speak passionately and eloquently and, you know, with with great sort of interest about what you do. Like, that's a sign that you're doing the right thing. And for me, like, my business is what my business is now, but I know where I want it to go and what the bigger picture is. And that is that excites
Dean:me. What is the bigger picture?
Madeline:Well, I can't share all of it. No. I mean, the goal is I mean, there's certain business goals and, like, financial milestones, but also the goal was always to create something that align more with my my core five values. My core values are communication, creativity, consistency, to be of service, and forgotten my last value. Anyway, there's, like, 10 of them.
Madeline:But, like, I these are, like, the cool things I wanna do. And I if I can if I can spend my entire life thinking, reading, and then communicating that in ways that helps people, Like, to be I never wanna be the expert in anything. I wanna be like a conduit. Right? Like, I wanna I wanna I think that's a gift I have, taking material, converting it into a form that is accessible for people and that they find helps them because, you know, my picture is for a much happier and healthier workplace, right, and and society.
Madeline:So, like, if if I can spend my life doing that, I'll be happy. So then it's like, okay, what are the different ways I could do that? And one of the things I really wanted to do was be more creative and I wanna write more and I wanna speak more. So to to be able to have more time for creativity, I wanna create a business which has a more passive income stream. So like now I do 1 on 1 coaching, but I've written a book.
Madeline:I'm about to launch my 1st online program. The goal in 2025 is to create a membership platform, right, where people can come and take my courses and access all this material for a really low price, but also it takes me out of doing the face to face delivery and allows me to focus on the stuff that I think will be of value elsewhere but also makes me really satisfied. So that's sort of, you know, the the general big picture.
Dean:I love it. I love it. And one of the big parts of your business that, at least, as it's the reason we're having this conversation now is your content.
Madeline:Yeah.
Dean:That's how I found you. Stalking away on LinkedIn or pops one of your videos. I don't know which one it was actually.
Madeline:Yeah. Which I'm I'm curious because some do better than others.
Dean:Because it it it was one that had, like, a 1,000 likes and from stalking your videos in preparation for this call, I think a few would like, there was there was only a handful that I saw that were in the 1,000. So one of those. But it it it's it stuck out to me. I went in and I looked at, like, tons of your videos. I was like because a lot of them cross over into my world.
Dean:You know? You have a message that you're a conduit of, and you're trying to share this, what you believe to be true. And and much the same on my side, I'm trying to share this message that you don't have to live life shackled to a desk if that's not what you want to do. That's what I'm trying to just let people know. And I don't have all the answers.
Dean:I don't have every get rich quick scheme, buy my course type thing. You know? I I I I I urge people to seek knowledge. I urge people to seek knowledge they don't otherwise have because that's how you get it. I'm just saying, you know, to people, like, just be wary of whose course you buy.
Dean:You know? Don't just jump into bed with every guru that comes up on your feed. But that's a roundabout way of saying how I found your content and was was was very drawn to it because it overlaps with what I'm trying to say. And and I just thought to myself, wow. This is brilliant.
Dean:So I wanna actually ask you a bit about that. Because in business now, if you're not posting content about what you're doing and what your business is, you you you're kinda behind. Yeah. Like, what businesses exist without content anymore?
Madeline:Yeah. And that that was a huge when I said there was lots of things I had to learn, I mean, I've had to learn how to I've had to learn, like, sound equipment and lighting and production. I don't do editing, by the way, but, like, there's all these things I had to learn about a business like marketing and funnels and things that I was like, oh, I don't I don't know that stuff. I'm the I'm the ideas person. I'm the lawyer.
Madeline:Right? Like, I read and tell you what to do or suggest what to do. Like, I'm not the decision maker. Like, I just I'm just like the expert. Right?
Madeline:Now I'm like now I'm not an expert in anything, and I had to learn all this stuff. So, yeah, content is huge. I knew content would be important for me because I'm ultimately trying to build a profile and also, like, to reach people. Video is the best way at the moment, particularly my demographic. Right?
Madeline:Like, they're online. They're lurking online. So I knew that content would be something I needed to do, but, yeah, it was really daunting. And the first so I I think I started posting stuff February or March 2024. But if you go back on my Instagram, it's not on LinkedIn.
Madeline:I didn't even post on LinkedIn then. I just posted on Instagram. It's very different. It's just like talking to camera blah blah blah blah. And it did fine but didn't really do that well.
Madeline:And then I engaged new people to help me in July, and, you know, came up with this new way of doing it and started posting it like like, late July, August. And that's done a lot better. I mean, that because the stuff I do, it's using these sort of tropes, I guess, or not tropes, but, like, the formats that are that the people are used to now on social platforms. And I think I was saying to you before we started this interview, like, with LinkedIn where it's really, really taken off for me, I think that I was one of the first not the first, but I mean that first wave of people who who are doing that short form oh, it just jumped out then. I mean, that first wave of people who are doing that short form video content on LinkedIn because I really only started making that a thing last year.
Madeline:So I think there's a little bit of luck, honestly. And, you know, in business, there's always a little bit of luck. So there's luck. And then I think also I try I try I I've really tried to work out, like, what my unique viewpoint is because I'm not reinventing the wheel. Right?
Madeline:Like like you said before, I'm not a guru. I'm not coming up with a way of living that I think is the right way of living or my own unique way of living. I don't wanna tell people what they should do with their lives, And I I don't wanna be so determined that there is only one right way. It's more like a a way to approach things. Right?
Madeline:Like, a way to think about things so you can make the best decisions or we can all sort of work better together or we can, like you said, unshackle ourselves if that's what we want. And so, yeah, that, you know, and and sometimes that's hard to translate because my videos aren't like a lot of those videos that go viral. They're very fixed, Right? They have, like, a piffy line or really attention seeking hook and and that sort of goes counter to, like, my my ideas. So finding that sweet spot where they're attention grabbing and they're, like, a minute, but they try and add some value or get people thinking or have people feel seen.
Madeline:That's that's the real I mean, that's the test each time.
Dean:So much of these things I wanna respond to there. One of them is I would I would friend politely challenge you on saying that you were lucky there. The reason I say that is. Yeah. Instagram and LinkedIn are very different.
Dean:They're the 2 platforms I post on as well. 2 very different platforms, very different. But I I think as somebody who found you on LinkedIn, you're the content speaks to me. I I I like, I was actually speaking to me. I get this.
Dean:You know? So I I would I would say give your content a bit more credit than that. And, yeah, like, to your points as well, somebody feeling seen. You're you're speaking to something that they relate to, that they know. And that was one of the notes I took when I was picking apart some of your videos.
Dean:I was like, why is this good? What is it that she's doing here that's actually
Madeline:Tell me.
Dean:I would love
Madeline:to see if you tell me why because I'm curious. Like, what because I do it, and you don't really know how it's gonna land. Like, why do you think it's good? Because you feel seen? Is that what you're saying?
Dean:I'm read yeah. Because I was trying to understand why it might be valuable to who it's kind of specifically designed for. So somebody in in the workplace, which is a lot of them are designed for someone in the workplace, maybe thinking of other things. And I think you've captured very well the workplace environment, especially in your comedic stitches of one person talking to another person. You speak very coherently about a specific subject, and you capture it very well in a way that's playfully comedic and also just super relatable and peppered with some value as well.
Dean:So there you go.
Madeline:You know, it's so funny. Yesterday, one of my best friends from home from Melbourne, she messaged me and she's like, her daughter, who I think is 11, she's like, oh, when she when my daughter's stuck on my phone, she says that she watches your videos and she says that the the role play ones, they slay. And I said, wait. You mean she called them the point of view ones. I said, what are the point of view ones?
Madeline:She's like, the ones where you talk back and forth. And I said, oh, why does she say that? Because I was like, actually, like, she's the next generation. I wanna know what an 11 year old. And she said, apparently, it's like this little girl who's like my goddaughter.
Madeline:Apparently, she said, that's what people wanna see.
Dean:Fuck. Yeah.
Madeline:So I'm like, okay. Well, like, I'm doing the right thing. Right? Like, that's what people wanna see. Like, that works for some reason that role play.
Madeline:Even, like, let because it if an 11 year old has any context of what I'm talking about, she doesn't care, but she'll watch it because of the the format. So there is something about the format that works for people.
Dean:I love that.
Madeline:So funny.
Dean:So so so you as you said, your your LinkedIn's popped off, by the way. Congrats on the continued Thanks. Growth of your LinkedIn. Talk me through your this is a question selfishly for me and for the person listening. If you are on the way to starting your business or you're planning to, content will be a part of it for you.
Dean:So pay attention to this one. Like, could you talk us through your creative process? So how you come up with idea and then how that ends up as a visually consumed piece of content?
Madeline:Yeah. Sure. So at the beginning, I was just like, oh, here's an idea that I want help with, and I'd send it to a copywriter. And they'd I'd write it, and they'd, like, fix it to make it you know, I do have I do have help. I have editors.
Madeline:I have copywriters. You know, you have people to support you. But in terms of, like, the ideas and the content, the way I do it now is a little bit more structured as my brand developed as I try to get clearer on, like, what I'm trying to say. I I I work it out this way. I come up I think about the big picture pain points that my clients, customers, audience, care about.
Madeline:Right? And I and I I some of it's intuitive. Some of it's sort of from, like, polling and, like, interacting, and some of it's just seeing what's landed on the stuff I've already done. Right? And so for me and I I mean, I don't need to go into this super in-depth, but, you know, there's there's similar sort of overarching things.
Madeline:There's challenging bosses. There's, working with other people, basically. I mean, I could summarize it all that way. And and within that, obviously, there's subtopics, but it's sort of like the people piece, like like, inter interpersonal stuff. Then there's purpose and, like, career transitions and, like, what am I doing with my life?
Madeline:So there's that, that, and then there's stress and burnout. I mean, I would almost say that they're the 3 big buckets. Yeah. Right? You've and you've
Dean:been, like, isolated them and say, gonna start here with one of these. I'm gonna go into one of the subtopics underneath.
Madeline:Correct. Correct. Yeah. So, like, I put it into the the the big pain points. Right?
Madeline:And then within that, I, like, do all these subtopics. Like, okay. Like, what, like, what is this like, like, what's what's what's stuff? So, like, for example, the career, like, what am I doing? I need to find a better path.
Madeline:Okay. Purpose, values, brand persona, personality, zone of genius, you know, like, a whole bunch of ideas I read, thought about, you know, there's articles on. And then from there, I'll be like, okay. Like, what about, like, can we can we do one on, like, like, today, I just dropped one on, like, how to build a personal brand. I was like, let's do one on personal branding.
Madeline:Like, what does that mean exactly, and how do you build your own personal brand at work? You know, we think branding's a bad thing, but really, we're talking about, like, your personality and how you can allow that to shine through. So, like, then someone, like, write it. I'll have a look at it. We'll play around.
Madeline:And then I record, like, I do 15 a month. I try and batch film. It's very annoying. I never get it done in the time I wanna get it done. So I'm constantly got this thing I need to do videos.
Madeline:Yeah. Over my head. Yeah. And then, also the lighting's a problem. You know, it's it's a whole bunch of things.
Madeline:I'm I'm not a perfectionist. I just, like, do it and go. Yeah.
Dean:It's so frustrating, isn't it? When you're, like, I'm trying to get, like because, you know, we all have busy lives and content is, like, a part of this kind of piece, this wheelhouse that you have. And then you dedicate time to do it. You're like, I'm gonna smash out these, like, 3, 4 videos or whatever. The light's off.
Dean:You you your hook isn't right. Your tonality isn't there. It's like Yeah. It's it's it can be so such a frustrating process of production.
Madeline:Yeah. And for women, I have to make sure my hair is clean, and I have to have makeup. Like, seriously, like, I can't like, I try and do things. And if I if they're professional ones, office ones, I'm like, well, I need to look presentable. And then I need to make sure that I'm changing my jacket because I can't wear the
Dean:same Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dean:Yeah.
Madeline:And then the lights change, and then I have to move the stuff around again. And I've got window because I'm filming most of them at home. I'm not in a production studio, so I have to, like, adapt for these lights. And yeah. So it's really quite difficult.
Madeline:When it when there's ones that I'm moving, I get my friend to help me. Like, I usually film elsewhere because some of them are just too hard to do on your own. I mean, in the future, maybe I'll have a production team and that'll be easy. But right now, it's just me, like, cheap and cheerful. So, then yeah.
Madeline:And then they get edited, and then we go through all that. And I've I've decided, like, you know, my brand obviously, I have brand palette. I have my colors. I you know, I've I've I've picked how I want the the subtitles to appear and that, you know, the hooks. So, like, there's a there's a visual element to it that I've predetermined, but, yeah, consistent.
Madeline:Exactly.
Dean:And then so you get the the big topics. You maybe dig into one of those subtopics. You batch record. You you you then refine, figure out what you're trying to actually say, and then you have an editing and a distribution machine. Talk me through that part.
Dean:So you have a video. It probably has is it is it in, like, 5 separate videos, and you just send it off and say, guys, chop that open, send it together?
Madeline:This is the real movie magic here. So if it's a talking back and forward one, the way I film it is I have the camera here and I stand in front of the camera and turn one way and I record all that person's lines. Right? And then I stand that way and look that way and I record all the other person's lines. Now that's usually 2 videos.
Madeline:Maybe if I'm quick, I'll do it all in one take. I don't do many takes. I just go. Like I said, I'm not a perfectionist. I've got so much to do.
Madeline:I'm like, fine. Whatever. And then I send that off to the editor, and the editors, stitch it together. Like, the editing is really key. I you know, in an ideal world, I would be good at editing.
Madeline:I'm not. It's one of those things I'm never gonna be good at. I did a year of film school. I was never good at editing. Like, I'm very happy to ask
Dean:for that. Hate it.
Madeline:I'm so bad. Yeah. So, like and I just know that. I just accept that about myself. Fine.
Madeline:Whatever. It's not my thing. So I outsource the editing. Yeah. And then it comes back.
Madeline:But the editors are good. I mean, I do think the editing makes a big difference. They can make it like, the timing good and yeah. The post remote ones, like, obviously, I'm just I just do it all in one take. The moving the moving from different areas or if I'm doing an action I do a lot of action ones.
Madeline:So usually, I'll just if I'm moving from location to location, it's just a bunch of short videos or if I'm making, like, the coffee or whatever I do with my hands, I make popcorn. Yeah. Usually, it's just sort of one one type, but, yeah, the editors do their magic. Editors are amazing. We should give them more credit.
Dean:If I was because, like, obviously, we've touched on a lot now your journey, you know, out of Australia, into the US, in and out of law, and through your your your 1st year. And then, you know, where we are now, where your content business booming, your business is booming. Like, one thing I was curious about to that I would be thinking if I was looking at your success now is, what is a coaching business actually like to run? And I asked that from the angle of scalability because and I guess you kind of probably answered this earlier with your membership program and your courses. But when it comes to coaching, you are inherently selling your time if if that is all you offer.
Dean:If it's just one to one coaching, it it is sort of a time exchange for money. And that can go upwards by increasing your rate per hour and so on. But, how would you describe coaching as a actual business model?
Madeline:Yeah. Good question. I mean, there's different types of coaches. I was always going for, like, breadth as opposed to, like, you know, limiting the numbers. So I was never going for, like, big ticket individual clients.
Madeline:I wanted to like, my whole goal was to create community. Right? That's very much what I wanted to do. Like I said, it was all about accessibility. So, like, I do have 1 on 1 clients, and my prices are not that high, but my goal would be to be more selective about my 1 on 1 clients and increase those fees.
Madeline:But the risk is that then I only hit the most senior people, and that's not really ever my goal. Right? So help. Yeah. So, like, I will keep doing 1 on 1 coaching because I really love the clients I have.
Madeline:I do. I truly like the clients I have, and I feel like I can be really impactful. And that also is where you learn a lot. Right? Like, it forces me to come up with new materials.
Madeline:I do more reading. You know? It keeps me fresh, all their problems. So, like, I I will keep the 1 on 1, but it's only gonna be a component of what I do because so to scale, I mean, I wanna start my own podcast this year, to to to bring greater awareness, then I'm gonna do that with a partner. But then I really want I like I said, I've I've created this ebook, which I hope people will will consume as an entrance into my world and my formula and really sort of see how my story impacted the way I approach coaching and professional development and also see my client stories, but then really be compelled to buy this very exciting online course I've created, which is like my baby.
Madeline:Right? Like, I, like Mhmm. Created this program, and it's, I think it's unique because I don't think there's this sort of executive coaching that is being created in a way that is accessible online for people who would never be able to afford a coach or even like a 1 on 1 coach like me. Like I said, I'm not the most expensive. So, like, this is like, that is my way of scaling to and then from there, like I said, to create that membership platform so the price is low, but the quality is high.
Madeline:But that is hard because I am looking for volume and numbers as opposed to less people who pay me more. So, I mean, that's how I wanna scale, and that's why for me, the content and the exposure is such a big part of it. It's not I'm not really using networks and relationships. I mean, I will I do a bit, but, like, that's not me. I'm not like an ex Google executive who's got a built in 10 people that can pay them $10 a month.
Madeline:Right? Like, that's not that's not me. So Yeah. I'm using what I have and I guess what my my goals and values are to drive my scalability.
Dean:I love that. So if I wanted to, like, if I was listening to this and I was like, okay, I'm looking for a career change. I wanna shift. I wanna move sideways or up or down or some direction. Where would I go to come and work with you and follow you and consume, consumer shit?
Madeline:I mean, if you wanted to just consume my stuff, you could jump on LinkedIn or Instagram. But I think if you wanted to really I mean, I do think the the lowest entry point would be my ebook, because you get a lot of value in that in terms of the process I use to shift my career, and that would definitely get your brain thinking about it in a really helpful way. I mean, I do think anybody who wants to change their career would benefit from my online program as well because it's not just about, like, connecting with purpose and values. It's also about developing yourself as a leader. And if you're gonna start your own business, you are going to be a leader.
Madeline:And I guarantee you that you are not a perfect leader because none of us have been. Right? And, like, nothing challenges your interpersonal skills, and your strategic thinking and your, like, soft skills more than starting your own business no matter what that is. So I think that engaging in one of my programs might it's called the dream career accelerator. It'll be available at the end of January.
Madeline:I truly think that would be a good investment, and it would be such it's such a low investment in terms of what it you know, the difference between work doing that course and working with a coach. You can also work with me 1 on 1. I'm not opposed to that. I do like that. But if you're really, like, looking to just dip your toe in, like, I think start with the ebook or the online program.
Dean:And I'll add to that by saying if you aren't quite prepared to go that far, even just following Madeleine on LinkedIn, she really does put a fantastic
Madeline:on LinkedIn.
Dean:I'm as if I'm kind of fangirling as you can see by giving her so much compliments, but you, no, seriously, you you you've had such a cool story and I love how you've just kinda just risked this. You didn't risk too much. You just went for it, and tuned into your dissatisfaction. That calling that you felt inside you, that wondering, searching for what is more what is what more have I got to give the world? And you leaned into it and it's working out for you.
Dean:So it's awesome to see. Really happy for you. And, yeah, it was great chat. Thanks for coming on.
Madeline:Thank you. And if I could give, like, one little bit of motivation to anybody that might be feeling like that, like, yes, there's more uncertainty doing what I did or what you might be thinking of doing, but I truly, truly can say that I feel more purposeful and more calm and more at peace. Somebody even described it the other day as it feels like they said, Madeline, this really feels like it's nourishing you. And that is like that is such a gift to give ourselves, right? Like that sort of even though there's stress and uncertainty and anxiety in all of it, that like deep, deep peace, like, it it feels amazing.
Madeline:Like, really? And I really, I want that for people. So, you know, make that there is
Dean:That's beautiful. Awesome. Well, this is a great chat. I appreciate you coming on.
Madeline:Thank you so much.
