#21 - Quitting SaaS: How Troy Munson Built Freedom Beyond Sales
Hello, friend. Welcome back to the 21st episode of Work Worth Doing. That's wild. That is wild to say. 21.
Dean:We've officially crossed over that cliff that they say podcasters tend to drop off after, and, you know, I can see why. It's not easy putting together a podcast. There's the prep. There's booking a guest. There's recording the podcast itself.
Dean:And then there's all the post production stuff such as the editing. Believe me, the editing is painful. Then there's the chopping up into short form reels and, you know, you've got to promote a podcast. You know, people aren't just gonna fucking find your podcast on their phone. It needs to be forced upon them in order for them to receive it.
Dean:And so I can see why. It's a it's it's it's a tricky endeavor, but a rewarding one. And my purpose with it is to share, what I have. What I have is a very flexible, free life due to the automated business that I have created. Now I'm not trying to sell you a property course.
Dean:That is the vehicle that I've used to build that automated business. I am merely trying to share with you that this is possible and that wherever you are, whether it be stuck in a 9 to 5 or perhaps you are building what you hope to be your freedom vehicle, that it's possible and you can do it. That's what this is about, to show you all the different ways in which you can live rather than being subject to a 9 to 5 that you hate in order to just receive money that you think you need. Which you do need, but not as much as you think. Our guest today is Troy Munson.
Dean:Troy is a founder. He has founded 3 separate companies. He has also, like myself, spent 8 years working in tech sales as an account executive. So you'll hear us talk a little bit about how he transitioned from sales to now owning and building his own business. But also you'll notice that I will bring him back to the earlier days as to how he formed the idea, how he went through his fears, how he dealt with having a manager and while still running a business.
Dean:All the usual reasons that I hear that people don't start, we get into. And we do it in a way that's very conversational. It's not a really strict interview style podcast. It's very relaxed. So kick back, relax, and enjoy it, but really listen to what Troy has done, how he has done it, what was going through his head, and how you can apply that to wherever you are at to get to where you want to be.
Dean:Last thing before we get into this episode, if you have resonated with anything I've just said about what this show stands for, what is it about, and who it is trying to help, please do support. And the only way I can ask you in a free way, by rating the show on Spotify, Apple or subscribing on YouTube. And secondly, if you have a friend that is stuck in a job, if you have a friend that is building a business and they are struggling, share this with them. They may take something from it that will help. Thank you.
Dean:Enjoy the episode. I'm gonna pass you in to the channel Troy. Troy, good to have you on, my man.
Troy:Dean, it's good to be here. Thanks for having me.
Dean:Yeah, man. You know, before we get into all, all things sales, entrepreneurship, I wanna ask a really important question, and that is what is the weather like today in Wisconsin?
Troy:Honestly, it's 37, I think, today. 37 and cloudy, which is really warm for right now. It was 0 last week. So I'm pumped. 30 7.
Troy:I can go out in, like, a long sleeve, and I'm I'm okay. So, yeah, not too bad.
Dean:And I think for my European folk, that is 0 degrees if I'm not mistaken. And the reason I asked that question is because I was actually in Wisconsin in 2019 November. And, man, it was brutal.
Troy:Yes. It I actually just moved here 3 months ago, and I'm from the south. So I come from the heat. This cold is new to me. It is brutal.
Troy:Taking my dogs on a walk in 0 degree weather Fahrenheit, I don't know what that is Celsius. It sucks. It sucks.
Dean:Pretty sure that's, like, minus 15.
Troy:That's I don't know the conversion, but we'll we'll go with that.
Dean:Yeah. So, yeah, man, like like myself, you were an account executive turned to a senior AE and enterprise AE. And for anyone who is, like, a nonsalesperson, that's sales. And you had that role at Apple, at Symantec, MongoDB, Dreamio or Dreamio if I'm getting that wrong, metadata, Proofpoint. You founded and sold 2 companies, Vocal and Referral.
Dean:You're now the CEO of Dimo. You have your own consulting firm. Cool. 34,000 followers on LinkedIn, and you started your own podcast. You're building a house.
Dean:You have a second kid on the way. You're a busy man, Troy.
Troy:Dude, you know everything about me. You know everything about me, but, yeah, it's a it's a busy life right now, but I I thrive. I get really bored very, very easily, so I'm glad I'm busy.
Dean:Yeah, man. Yeah. No. I was doing some scouting on your LinkedIn, looking back at your previous history, and I think, you know, I've obviously followed you for a while now, and, I we share a lot. You know, you were an AE for 8 years, turned into an entrepreneur, and that is exactly the story that I have been through myself.
Dean:And so I think what you've been through and what I've been through, as we dig into to your specific story, I think it might help somebody who is in sales and who wants to potentially leave.
Troy:Yeah. I love these conversations. I had 2 conversations with sales reps in the last couple weeks, and they just literally told me their business idea and how to get started with it. And, like, I love this stuff. Everybody out there has an idea.
Troy:They just don't know what what it takes or how to get started, so this is fun.
Dean:Yeah, man. But, like, the thing is with being an AE is that life is almost too good. It's you get all the nice things. You get paid very well. The offices are great, and it's fun.
Dean:And you develop really great skills that are transferable. And, you know, being an AE isn't that bad. And that's almost the danger. You know? What why did you why did you, like, not stay put when you had it so good?
Troy:This is actually a funny story, but, 1, AEs have it really good. We get paid, in my opinion, way more than we should, but who cares? Like, let's just take it for what it is. Like, the fact that we get paid more than, like, surgeons, general surgeons, and things like that is is bonkers to me. But it's actually I'll keep the long story short.
Troy:I was at Proofpoint. I was doing really well there. I lived in North Carolina. That's where my patch was. All my accounts were larger accounts in North Carolina.
Troy:I was moving to Wisconsin where my in laws are because we have a second kid on the way. Proofpoint didn't have any Wisconsin jobs, so I had to go and switch jobs. It's not even on my LinkedIn because it was, like, a 2 month stint, but it was while I was building demo. And, again, like, I had it good. I I did not want anything to stop.
Troy:I was just gonna continue to run demo on the side for as long as I possibly could. But because some things that I post on LinkedIn get amplified and some things get reached that are like, if even I'm like, shit. It surprises me. Like, how did this do so well? Mhmm.
Troy:There's a lot of eyes on me at this small little company that I joined, and I let them know I was running demo on the side. I actually had to get approval during the hiring process. But 2 months in, they were like, dude, you're very clearly your heart is very clearly into something else and not our company, so we're gonna have to can you. And they just they let me go, and it was time. So when did I know it was time to make the jump?
Troy:When when literally a company was like, hey, dude. You're clearly building something, and you only care about that thing. Go build that thing. So I was kinda forced into it. I I I was pulled and pushed at the same time.
Troy:So yeah.
Dean:Dude, I actually had that myself. I didn't quite realize you had the same thing. So, I started my journey in building a business in the world of property. And the reason I did that was just purely because I wanted to get away from sales. That was the vehicle I chose, and I kinda bought a course, so I could acquire this knowledge that would generate me a cash flowing business.
Troy:Mhmm.
Dean:And then the business that I was working for, they started to realize that, you know, hey. You're not really your hat's not really in it anymore. And, like, to use your words, they canned me, and I was gone. And then I was like, fuck. Yep.
Dean:Here we go. But the the the the thing for me, though, was I always knew I wanted to leave sales despite it being so good. Like, were were you the same?
Troy:Oh, dude. Since I'd since I've been, like, 10 years old, I always knew I wanted to run my own business. But when you're making, you know, a decent amount of money for the amount of effort that it take especially as, like, a large enterprise sales rep, you usually have really I had 9 accounts. Do you really think you're you're able to be busy for 40 hours a week with 9 accounts? No.
Troy:Right? So I had a lot of extra time. But I always knew. Always. I had always known that I was going to run my own business at some point.
Troy:It was a matter of when, and it was a matter of my wife pretty much saying, I'm sure we'll get into, like, the side gigs that I built and sold. I spent my own money on those. And she was like, if you start something else, you're not spending our money. And that's kind of why I was like, I had to to wait. I couldn't just quit and and go and spend our money.
Troy:So so, yeah, we'll we'll get into all those stories, but I always knew that this is where I'd be. But I'm happy I'm here now.
Dean:Yeah, man. It's the the thing about just to go back to what you said about especially being in an enterprise sales role, You're not working 40 hours.
Troy:No. You're not. No. You're you know, me
Dean:and my friend used to say this. We'd be like, yeah. Like, at best, you're working 3, 4 hours a day. Like and the rest, you're kinda, you know, just online.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah. People it's it's this unspoken thing in the large enterprise world where you don't really talk about it, but everybody knows it. Right? Like, your manager knows it.
Troy:Your VP knows it. Especially for, like, as a proof point where I had, you know, my direct manager, my VP, my regional VP, my CRO. Like, everyone knows that once you get up there, it's less work. The deals are larger. They're you know, they take longer.
Troy:They're more complex, and they are a bit more annoying to deal with. But it's like you can't you don't it's not a transactional sales role where you're slinging 40 deals every quarter. You're slinging, like, 2 or 3. And just it's it's just a lot of project management and and knowing how to leverage resources. But yeah.
Dean:Like, you've kinda earned your stripes at that point, though. So you can kind of you've done those days when you're bashing the phones for 80 dials a day. You're transacting 20, 40 deals a month, whatever, like a massive pipeline and massive turnover pipeline and massive turnover. So you've earned it. You've earned it.
Dean:You can now sit up at the top. And therein lies the danger. That is, like, the point where so many people will think, oh, fuck it. It's just I have it too good now. And that's what I see a lot of.
Troy:And that is a I I see it a lot too. When I was at Proofpoint, you could just tell that some people had it way too good. And it as you get larger and you move upwards towards the larger accounts, it is this it's a, one, it's a timing thing. Like, getting a company that's 40,000, 50,000 employees just in the US, you're not gonna go over there and and illuminate pain and then sell them a deal in, like, 12 months. Right?
Troy:You're planting seeds. There's constant education, and there is that trouble of, like, well, it's a timing thing. So if I just kinda hang out at some point, one of my marketing emails will get them at the right time, and they'll come inbound. But at the end of the day, I love I love prospecting. I think, like, the high of prospecting is the the high that you get when you book a meeting through some channels is awesome.
Troy:But that is the danger is now what do I do with all this spare time? Do I go try to build something? Do I just go play golf? Which I know a lot of people that just go and play golf. But yeah.
Troy:It is. It's dangerous, but it's like you said, you earned your stripes. You put the work in and and you made it. So
Dean:But it's a curse, man. Because, like, on the one hand, I'm so happy I went on this wacky journey I've been on to building a business, getting away from sales, now starting a podcast and sending a message to, like, you know, I I share it through the lens of a salesperson, but I'm sharing it for anyone who's, like, dissatisfied in their work that, hey. Look. There's other ways to live. Right?
Dean:But even in saying that, I I sometimes just wish I was like, I just wish I actually liked sales.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. That's life. It is a good life.
Troy:And I I like it. I think that I I really like it, but I think that a lot of salespeople would like it more if it wasn't selling for somebody else, and it is their own thing, which is why I love the idea of this podcast because there are a lot of salespeople. I was just speaking to somebody earlier today where it's like, they just they usually hop, like, every 12 months. I was I was in this boat. I'd hop, like, every 12 to 14 months because I'd Yeah.
Troy:Go somewhere. I'd hit my quota, and then I'd be like, oh, this is boring. I figured this out. Let me go somewhere else. So it it is this and each time I I'd left, I won and made more money.
Troy:There's only one job that I jumped to where I made less money, and I that's, like, one of my biggest regrets. But every other job, I made more money, and I had a promotion of selling to bigger accounts. But but, yeah, it's like yeah. It is it's people just don't wanna sell for other people, I think, is or they some do. Some do.
Troy:I'm not gonna speak in absolutes here, but a lot of sellers don't wanna sell for other people. They just do it because it's a paycheck.
Dean:I think. Yeah. And that's a very good point, actually, because I remember when I started selling for myself, as I said, I got when I got the boo and I had to, you know, go all in on this business, Every deal I was trying to close for my property business, it mattered so much more. And because I was coming at it from a lens of sales, I was I was busting moves that nobody else was doing, you know. Like, I'm after handling some real professional shit.
Dean:Now I'm just speaking to people who are not used to dealing or, doing business with people who are, like, you know, well versed in this space. You know? And so I always say that to people in sales. Like, man, you've got some serious skills.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's true. But when you're selling for yourself, you care so much more.
Troy:And it's it's much more stressful, but it's also much more fun. Like you said, you're you're busting shit out that you probably would have never done in a w two or in a corporate job because you can and you need that deal and you need to stand out. Like, it it it's different. It's different. And there's so much more that goes on than just the sales part, which is, you know, stressful, but it's all part of it.
Dean:Yeah. So I wanna go into your, like, zoom back a little bit because, like, one of the questions that, like, I get a lot of, like, DMs and people reaching out to me, since I've kinda been a bit more, like, vocal with this and sort of saying, hey. Look. This is this is an option for you. Usually, the first one of the first questions is, right, well, what's the the first step?
Dean:Like, what do I do? How do I figure this shit out? And I saw one of the companies you created, Vocal, that was in 2021, and it was a platform for, like, connecting business influencers with their followers. Like, what I wanna go is, like, the point where that became an idea in your head.
Troy:Mhmm.
Dean:How did it become an idea in your head? And then how long was it from idea to action? What did that look like?
Troy:Yeah. I was in your shoes, actually. The idea came from, I wanted to flip houses, and I was about to buy a course, and it was a couple $1,000. It's funny when you said it earlier today, I was like, I know we're gonna talk about vocal, and you just mentioned buying a course to get into the property. Very similar thing.
Troy:I was like Mhmm. How do I flip it? How do I do the burn method? How do I do all these different things? Like, all that stuff.
Troy:Right? And so I was like, fuck. Like, this guy is gonna milk what whatever it was, 2,000, $3,000 off of me, And I'll get a course, and I'm sure I'll get really good information as well. But he also has no fucking clue where I'm at in my life. And so my whole thing was, what if I can just ask him for 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 12 minutes, 6 minutes?
Troy:Like, any sort of increment of his time, and he sets a dollar per minute. What if I just was able to talk to him for 10 minutes and say, hey. Here's $300. And then I just sit down and say, hey. I have whatever it is, $50,000 in my bank account.
Troy:This is where I'm at. I have I live here. Whatever. Give him the whole lay of the land financially, where I'm at, what I'm looking for, and then he just gives me, like, a a starting point. So that's the idea of Vocal.
Troy:It was how do I get to be or how am I able to talk to somebody that I look up to or somebody that is a business influencer? Honestly, we just called it the business professional OnlyFans. And we even tried to sell like, my goal was to sell that company to OnlyFans. And when we were when we were launching it I don't know if you remember this. This was, like, 3 years ago when we were playing around with Vocal.
Troy:OnlyFans was like, hey. We're gonna stop doing adult content and focus purely on business, and they tanked. They almost went under, and then they were like, alright. Screw it. We're going back to it.
Troy:No way. But I was like, this is perfect. Like, what if we can get as many business influencers on the platform as possible? And then I can position it as, hey. We already have this.
Troy:Do you wanna buy us? That never panned out. All that to say is that was my idea. And then from idea to actual platform, I'd probably say it was about 4 to 6 months or so. Then I outsourced that engineering team on Upwork, which is a a way to start.
Troy:Horrible experience. We can get into that here soon, but horrible experience. The whole website didn't work, and it pretty much was a failed business, but we were able to sell it to a company that had millions of subscribers. So I think they tried to revamp it.
Dean:Nice. Okay. So you you you got a few bub, as we say.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah. I'd I I've never heard that that slang right there, but I got a few bub.
Dean:Little bit. And okay. So that became an idea. You recognized what I love about each of your businesses, by the way, and this is like something I'm very, steadfast on is like look at what problems you're actually familiar with. Look at what do you know quite well, what do you solve for yourself, or what problems have you solved for others in the past.
Dean:Play with that. Start there. Mhmm. That's something you can do if you don't wanna buy a course, if you don't wanna acquire new information or solve a new problem or acquire a new skill set. So that's cool, man.
Dean:I like I like how that worked out for you. Like, you were still in the job, though, at the time. Right? You were working in Dreamio if my LinkedIn stalking is correct. Like, what was your manager and superior saying at the time?
Dean:Because that's, like, you know, that's a big one, man. People always say, well, what if my manager finds out? And me and you are living proof that it's it can sometimes go against you, but, like, how did you handle that?
Troy:Yeah. My manager did not know about this one. This one, I was actually kinda swept under the rug. I was doing it secretly. So they had no idea.
Troy:I was just and, of course of course, when you're starting to build something on the side, like, a lot of your passion and a lot of your effort goes into what you're building because you care about it a little bit more. But, yeah, they had no clue.
Dean:K. So you just kept it under wraps?
Troy:Kept it under wraps. Kept it under wraps as long as I could. Yeah.
Dean:Smart. How did you get them to acquire it then? Did you actually, like, actively seek someone to to purchase it or did that how did that come about?
Troy:Yeah, it was kind of more of a guerrilla style. I went through Flippa, which is like acquisition of Comercio, but I looked through a lot of the users and I emailed a bunch of the users on Flippa that were interested in buying businesses instead of just, like, creating a listing because the website was broken to the point where the revenue was was so low, and I knew that I wouldn't have gotten like, Flippa literally said, like, we can't list this because you're asking for too high of a multiple. So I was like, fuck it. I'm gonna go reach out to people because the idea is there. I just need somebody to fix it.
Troy:The long story about the dev part of it, but that's what I did. I went through Flippa users, reached out to them, and got I don't even know what his name was. David, Dan, something like that. Not Dean, though. And then hold on right there.
Troy:My dog is scratching so hard at the door. One sec.
Dean:No worries. Go. Go. Go.
Troy:I wanted to make sure I finished that thought before I walked over there. Alright. We're good.
Dean:Oh, good. Like, one of the, like, big, like, things that seems to stop people or maybe stops people before they start or after they maybe even after they do just start is, like, their own fears, their own doubts, the whole list of reasons why you think it might go wrong, and therefore, either preventing action or stopping action just after it gets started. Talk to me a little bit about what was going through your head when you attempted your first business and, like, kinda how did you deal with that? Did you did you have to deal with them?
Troy:No. Luckily, I didn't, and I think it's because everybody handles things differently. They think of things differently, and they have different mindsets. Right? And I think for me, my mindset, it's the same thing with, like, prospecting in sales.
Troy:If you don't do it, then the answer's already a no. So it's kind of similar. So if we correlate it to building something on the side or building a business, if you don't start, it's not gonna become anything. So for me, it was just like, if I get told no, great. It's a no already.
Troy:Like, if I go out and reach out to people, try to sell my side gig, sell my services, sell my product, it's a no already. You're starting with the no. So so it's like, how do we get a yes? And if you go through enough noes, you'll eventually find a yes. So that's how it wasn't a fear.
Troy:I think the biggest fear, especially for Vocal, was we had 11, we call them professionals on the site. And altogether, they had 27,000,000 followers, and they were shouting us out the day before launch, like, hey. Come book time with me tomorrow, all this stuff. And then the site crashed and all that stuff. So that was my fear that the site was gonna crash and and stuff like that.
Troy:But I had no fear starting. Because, again, if
Dean:Mhmm.
Troy:It's already nothing. You might as well just turn it into something. So yeah.
Dean:Yeah. One of the things I try and advocate for is just that there seems to be this perceived idea or perceived risk of if I start, there's a whole chain of events that will lead to me losing my job, losing my income, dying, being on the streets and eating a tin of beans. And what I always say is there's actually when you think about it and break it down into its simplest components, if you are a little bit discreet about it, not like me and you, and you just start doing something on the side and just test it out very very gently, there's no risk. Yeah. There's no risk except for your ego.
Dean:If If you Yeah. Doesn't work out and you have to walk away with your tail between your legs. That's it. That's as bad as it gets. That's rock bottom.
Troy:Yeah. It is. And that that is true. That's I guess there was a little fear, like, if my company found out. But at the end of the day, if you're not performing and you're doing really bad, like you're bottom of the barrel, maybe there's some fear to not start something.
Troy:But if you're doing well, or if you're even keeping up with the, like, with the pack that's doing decently well, I don't think that there should be much fear. Now if your mindset is like, let's say my company did layoffs today, not mine specifically, but the one that you're at. If they did layoffs today, would you be part of that? Maybe there'd be a fear, you know, like, if if you're not performing already. But maybe that's a sign to also go off and do your own thing.
Troy:But that that is very true that what you just said that just kind of dip your toes in the water a little bit to see what's out there, be a little bit discreet about it. And and you mentioned it in the beginning. Make sure it's an area that you know so you don't have to spend too much time learning something completely new, and then go offer it. And
Dean:we all have, like, in our pockets access to infinite information in like, it's it's, like, inconceivably, like, exponentially rather easier now to build a business or to learn very basic skills than it was for our folks. Imagine our folks trying to build an online business, like, at the when the dotcom boom was happening. Come on.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No chance. And a lot of companies are remote nowadays, which is a blessing and a curse.
Troy:But, yeah, you there's a lot of free time in the world nowadays and a lot of information at your fingertips where you can and a lot of technology that makes building tech or building a landing page or building your service like, you can get something done over over a weekend at this point. So, yeah, it's insane.
Dean:So moving ahead into your journey then, so you kinda sold that off, moved on. It didn't really amount to too much. Then you've got referral, which is a website for B2B referrals. Like, maybe if you could shed a little bit of light on how that idea came about and maybe a brief insight into the story of referral, how it started.
Troy:Yeah. So referral, another side gig, did it while I was at metadata. And I actually even told the metadata CEO, like, hey. I'm going to build this because it was a problem that they were facing at metadata at the time. We had an amazing referral program at metadata.
Troy:So if you referred somebody and they became a customer, you would personally get $20,000 into your bank account, which is absolutely absurd. Not sure how much that is for to into euros, but all that to say is $20,000. Like, all you would need to do is make 5 to 10 referrals in a year, and you would probably get $60,000 additional income. But nobody was giving us referrals, and it blew me away. And so I kinda just looked at why it was.
Troy:And the first biggest problem was people didn't reach out. Or if they did reach out to customers or people that could leave referrals, they would ask one time and never ask again. They'd never bring it up. So that was the big thing. So I told my CEO at the time.
Troy:I was like, hey. I wanna build this to where we can automate the process of asking for referrals, not only from our customers, but from our technology partners that we have, from our investors, from everybody. I wanna automate essentially, build a sales author and outreach for referrals specifically. So there was that. And then one thing snowballed into the other.
Troy:It was like, okay. Well, now you actually have to track the referral. Like, did it come from a referral? Were they already a lead? There's all this thing that went into it.
Troy:So we automated the outreach, the reporting, the tracking, and the payouts, of referrals. And so we did that. We got to about, I think it was, like, 12 12 to 15. I can't remember the exact number. Annual customers.
Troy:The way I went about that was I didn't wanna do Upwork again because I had just I pretty much had, like, food poisoning from Vocal. And so I just went to I lived in a a new build neighborhood in Austin, Texas, and we have a Facebook group for it. And I just went to the Facebook group. I searched up the term software engineer, and one guy made a post saying, any other software engineers at the neighborhood. There were 17 people that commented.
Troy:I messaged every single one of them and said, hey, I have a I have an idea. Do you wanna help me build it 50 50 split? And that's how I found my my, cofounder there. He built it out. And so yeah.
Dean:Yes, man. I love that hustle.
Troy:Yeah. Dude, you gotta you gotta find them where you don't typically look. You know?
Dean:Yeah. This is like sales again having its applications in the real world, you know, getting shit done.
Troy:Yep. No. Sales is important, man. Sales is important.
Dean:And it just feel it's it's so much more exciting when you are doing it for yourself. Like, it is Yeah. It is fun because, like, you know, you're dangling the carrot of money when you're with a company, and it's exciting. We all like money for varying reasons. You know?
Dean:It it helps prop up our lives. We need it. You know? Yep. But doing it for yourself has such a more reward.
Dean:Like, it's so much more the the level of grit it brings out in you, the creativity it brings out in you just matters a lot more. Right? And especially when you've been kicked out of your job and you have to have work.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah.
Dean:That really matters. So but you one thing you said earlier, by the way, man, I wanna go back to because not everyone might think this but you you said you always wanted to be an entrepreneur. You always wanted your own business.
Troy:Yeah.
Dean:You always knew that?
Troy:Always. Ever since I was a kid, I'd I could go through a list of things. So, like, in high school, I printed T shirts, and I sold T shirts to people in high school. And then from there, I've I've tried to build so many things. I I in college, I built a company called Smooth, which is like beard oil and pomade.
Troy:And I literally sat in my apartment kitchen, boiled water, and then put a bunch of oils and stuff like that in a fucking pot and made pomade, and I'd canned it, and I'd shipped it out. Actually, that that did decently well because we partnered with, like, a YouTuber. And then there's been a lot of I have, like, so many ideas. I actually used to have a newsletter that takes too long to write now, but I used to have a newsletter where I would I would share a business idea that I had every single week. It was called the founder feed because I didn't have enough time to build them.
Troy:But I don't do that anymore. I think it's still a cool idea. I just don't have the time to write that newsletter. But, but, yeah, I would just I have so many ideas and there's so many things I tried. Yeah.
Troy:It's just always always know.
Dean:I think this is for the person who's listening right now, I think this is a good example of because I was never like that. I never knew I wanted to have my own business. I never sold lemonade. I never had a lemonade stand. I never I never had anything entrepreneurial or what you might associate with entrepreneurship in me.
Dean:And I'm saying this just to merely highlight if the person listening is here and you say that you were always into it and then discounts themselves because they maybe weren't like that. I was never like that. I never ever ever did any of that shit. I was purely driven by the fear of the potential regret I'd have if I never changed anything about my life because I hated working at sales. That's what I was driven by.
Dean:I never really had this sort of creative element or business mind in me. I just kinda picked it up along the way.
Troy:That's interesting. And I'm sure a lot of people are like that, and I think that that is so I always knew I wanted to be, for sure. But there is, especially with demo, there is that what if feeling that I have that just it burns inside of me where it's my wife and I talk about it a lot. Because at this point, I'm working a lot more than I have ever worked in my life. I'm making less than I probably have made in the last 4 years.
Troy:I don't get any commissions, so there's no commission checks. There's a lot of things. Right? But I'm working more. And I just keep, you know, I just keep trying to, like, beat on that drum of, like, what if, like, what if I execute this properly?
Troy:And in 5 years, somebody just picks us up or something, and it would change our lives forever. So there is this, like, burning desire in me even though I always knew I wanted it. Like, I hope that that sort of conversation inspires the people that either never knew that they wanted it, like yourself, or people like me that are on a w two job. Like, especially if you don't have a kid right now and you don't have many responsibilities, like, that that what if feeling, like, take that what if feeling now. It's like he, I don't know.
Troy:It there's
Dean:You know what I love about what you just said is that you're you're beating that drum now for a future version of Troy. Like, you're you're suffering now for the reward that's waiting for you down the line. And it made me think of a quote that is very simple. It just says, if you risk nothing, you risk everything.
Troy:Mhmm. I I know that quote, and I love that quote. And it is so true. It is so true. I I do.
Troy:I beat that drum every week when we have a conversation about how I work so much. So but I I balance is important too. So let's go ahead and let's let's also say that balance is also important. Don't work every day all day.
Dean:Yeah. No. I definitely don't advocate, you know, being Alex Romozi and working 27 hours a day. It's like, you know, for a lot of people that's not sustainable. And this is a perfect chance for me to segue into a, a perp particular LinkedIn post that you posted.
Dean:And it was about what life is like for different entrepreneurs and how success differs. So you had the $2,300,000,000 business owner who hates reading and doesn't work out. This is you posting this, by the way, about your network. Oh, yeah.
Troy:I know exactly who that is. Yeah. Yeah.
Dean:You never post yeah. You said you had a 1,000,000 business a guy with a 1,000,000 business who always drinks and who always reads. You had a guy or or a girl, I can't remember, with a 250 k business but wakes up at noon. And then you said at the end of it, which I quoted here, I wanted to shine a light on the fact that there is different strokes for different folks. Do what you like to do.
Troy:I
Dean:was like, spot on. You just don't have to be like what everyone says on the Internet. You can make it fit for you.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah. I I you can. And there's many different avenues. And I think one thing that I when I when I wrote that post, like, I know exactly these 3 people that we're talking about right now.
Troy:But then there's also people in my life, because I I do wanna bring this up. That post was shining light on what most would consider successful from a financial perspective. Like, they they do make a fair sum of money, but I also point out that success is different to everybody, and it is. Right? Like, success could be also making 60 k a year and working 10 hours.
Troy:Like, you don't need to go make a 100, 200, 300, 400, a $1,000,000 a year to be successful. It's it's different for everybody. But I think the biggest thing about that is, like, those people that I were that I was talking about specifically, like, the one that actually founded the $2,300,000,000 company is now starting another company. That guy is a workhorse. He works all the time.
Troy:He sleeps like, he doesn't give a shit about life besides work for the most part. And so it is. It's it's different to everybody. A lot of people are like, if you give up alcohol and you give up caffeine and you do all this, like, you will be successful. And I'm like, fuck that.
Troy:Like, I'm gonna go have a beer on the weekend because I just work my ass off during the week. Like and I and I I'm a big proponent of, like I think your physical health kinda drives your mental health. And so, like Yeah. I I'm gonna go eat, like, shit on the weekends because I suffer during the week of working out and eating somewhat healthy on the week. So it's just it's so different to everybody.
Troy:And I I don't I don't know. I say I think when people are like, you need like, the Alec Alec from Mosey is just work he works 27 hours a day like you mentioned. You don't need to do that. Just unless you want to, but you know, it's
Dean:Go for it. Go for it. And it's just like, do what you want, man. Do what you want. You don't need to be like everyone else.
Dean:But you what you said about success, I'm just gonna share an example for me why I started my business. It was purely to replace my sales income. I didn't actually want to be a property millionaire. I just wanted to use that vehicle to move me away from having to exchange my time for money. And I wanted to have a business that was automated, for the most part, that I own.
Dean:Now I do. Is that success? I think so. In that particular context, it is. And now I have all the free time in the world to focus on things that I actually want to do.
Dean:I travel very regularly. I travel often. I bring my work with me. I like working now. And a big thing is that I choose to work.
Dean:I wake up in the morning and I decide whether or not I work, which is a fantastic position, man. So to me, that was my success. And I always say to when I have a conversation like this is, like, you know, just figure out what is it you actually want. If you want, you know, a couple of $100 a year and working 3 or 4 hours a day, go into enterprise sales. Like, you you you'll be you'll be good.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah. And and I I love that. I love that. And that's to be fair, that's why I started a demo was how do I make income on the side of my w two that will pay my mortgage so I don't have to use my w two money to pay my mortgage?
Troy:That's how we started, push us services business. And next thing you know, I ended up full time, but I'm not in a I'm not in as I'm not in an as fortunate situation as you where it's I can wake up and be like, yeah. Not today. I still gotta wake up and I gotta show up, but the shit that I do today, I love. Like, I know that like you mentioned earlier, like, I know that there's this this future reward if I do the right things today.
Troy:And so, and it's fun to me. I love working. Like you just went, I love working on my biz I love working. I can't watch movies. I'm bad at watching TV shows, and it's because I get so distracted.
Troy:And to be honest, right now, it's like, this is sad. Some people might find this as sad. I find it as sad too. But the only thing I think about when I'm trying to sit down and watch a TV show is, like, I'm like, what can I be doing to make demo successful? And it's Yeah.
Troy:It's all part of it. But yeah. Yeah, man. It's I love it, though. I love it.
Troy:Super fun.
Dean:Yeah. It's like it's it's all encompassing for sure, but the the risk is very high and the reward is equally as high than the end.
Troy:Yeah.
Dean:And and this let's I actually would like to use this as a chance to get into demo. And maybe you can share a little bit about that because, like, I'm not sure if I've mentioned this to you before, but this question is particularly pertinent because I've actually invested in demo in that angel round. Not not much, but a little bit. So I I'm I'm in for the ride as well, and I'm I'm keeping an eye on you guys. I also follow you and Sarah as well.
Dean:So I have done for a while and think that maybe lend itself to building a bit of trust. And, also, I knew the space. You know? I know the space that you guys are in. I know the problem you're trying to solve very well, and I just I think it's a very good idea.
Dean:I really like the idea of the company. I think it's very clever, and I think it has legs. And I know in your podcast, you said you wanted to get it to, like, 5, 10,000,000 ARR, sell it off, give your kids a better life. When do you when do you think that might happen by? When you hope
Troy:question I yeah. So, one, that's a that's a good question. We're working really let's just hypothetically say, like, 3 to 5 years would be my goal if that's what we did right there, that specific thing. But I've also said I've also said things like like, that's like when I started demo and I went full time on demo, my thing was, okay. Let's go scale this to several million in ARR, and let's go find an acquirer, and let's hopefully be profitable to the point where we can sell it at much higher multiple than if we weren't.
Troy:And so that's always been, like, the goal for me. Like, one day that I don't want to do is run a business of, call it, 3,000 employees. I'm in charge of 3,000 employ like, people's livelihoods. I don't want to be in that position. That sounds like shit.
Dean:Fuck.
Troy:So all that to say, I've also said, let's just say 3 years down the road, we're at 5,000,000, 10,000,000 ARR, and I'm loving it. I wouldn't stop if I'm having the time of the like, my time like, the most fun in my life, but I'm also making a decent living and and things like that. Like, I I don't think I would stop there. But I it's everyone tries this. Right?
Troy:This is so cliche, but there's also that thing of you also don't wanna wait too long to the point where you're now your your multiple is much lower. And then, like, you like a lot of companies, they got all that funding in 2020, 2021, 2022, where it's like their valuation is actually much lower today than it was 2 years ago. So you don't I don't wanna run into that, but I'd say about 3 to, like, 3 to 5 years was my goal coming into demo, but it would be naive for me to say that that's exactly what's gonna happen. So yeah.
Dean:And what if you sell it then? Then what?
Troy:I'd probably take a month off and then build something else. I love I love the whole building phase. It's either that or something that I do right now, you kinda mentioned in the beginning, is I help a lot of companies in the very early stages. Like, very early, almost prerevenue or we're we have 10 customers kinda thing. Like, if you have a 1,000,000 in ARR, that's that's too much for me.
Troy:I don't feel like doing all that stuff. But I just help them on, like, the product vision, creating a go to market workflow, like, all that stuff to make sure that, like, you can go get your first 10, 50, a 100 customers, and then I just wanna depart. Like, I wanna step away. So the other thing it would be that would be fun for me is is some sort of consulting and then maybe maybe do some, like, angel investing and stuff like that to see see what that does. But, of course, that's the long game.
Troy:But but yeah. So that's it's either I build something else. Like, I I find out a pain that I'm having as I build demo, and I wanna go solve for that pain, or I just start helping other people do it.
Dean:And then what what what do you want from the sale? Like, the sale happens tomorrow. Right? You're 3, 5 years down the line. What do you do?
Dean:What do you do in that month that you take off?
Troy:Wow. I haven't thought about this. Like, what did I do in that month? Honestly, in that month, considering I have a second kid on the way, it's gonna be and let's just hypothetically say that they're 5 years older, 3 to 5 years older than they are today.
Dean:Big holiday.
Troy:They'd be in they'd be in school. Yeah. Yeah. Right? They'd be in school, so I'd have to, like, plan something.
Troy:So for that month, probably nothing. Probably but I would plan a couple things that they want something with the family, and then, like, another thing would be something with the wife. No kids. Because right now, I'm getting all these memories on my phone of, like, us in Greece and Italy and stuff. I'm like, damn.
Troy:The things I do to get that back. You know? But, like, love my kid. Love my kid. My I only have one kid now and another on the way in, like, 3 weeks.
Troy:But love my son to death. But those vacations, they're just, you know, there's something else.
Dean:I'd say, like, you know, a friend and I were talking about this recently, how, like, your priorities fundamentally change once you have a kid. Like, your perp your your whole purpose flips in one day to keep this thing alive. Don't let it don't let it die. Feed it.
Troy:Yep. Yeah.
Dean:And for me, I'm I'm I'm 32 now. I turned 32 last week, and I don't have kids. So, like, I'm just so selfish in in a nice way. You know? I don't have to be thinking about other people.
Dean:But, yeah, man. I don't I I don't know. I'm, like, so on the fence with kids.
Troy:Yeah. Well, happy belated, 1. 2, it's true. I the way I describe it to some people is it's like your identity changes a little bit. Like, one day, you're you're this Troy that you know, and the next day, you're like a dad.
Troy:Like, you're you're not the same Troy that you were the day before you brought him home from the hospital. Like, the freedom changes, the responsibility changes, everything really in your life changes in such a such a big magnitude, and and a lot of people don't recognize that until the kid's born. And I didn't recognize it, and it threw me for a loop. I was like, holy shit. Like, I can't even go get lunch by myself right now because I gotta stay home with this kid.
Troy:So there's a yeah. It threw me for a loop, but it everything does change. I can't make the decision for you. I know you're on the fence. I can't help you with that decision, buddy.
Dean:Do do you think you you would have do you think you'd be where you are now if you didn't have your first kid? Or do you think like how do you think that has impacted your progress? Because I can imagine while you're thinking there, I'll just frame that like because I think it could easily give you a new purpose, a new reason for being All of a sudden, this company you're creating has a whole new meaning attached to it. But equally, it could give you 10 times the responsibility and therefore dampen how your your efforts. You know?
Dean:Yeah.
Troy:So everything right now that I'm doing for demo and everything right now that I'm doing for demo is definitely for the family and for them to be able to enjoy a life that I I didn't grow up with any money at all. So it's everything I'm doing right now for demos, like, let me give my wife, my kids, like, the life that I wish that I had. Like, I'd go over to a friend's house in their basements. They'd have, like, all this play stuff and whatever, and it was sick. So it's like, that's one thing.
Troy:Like, the whole thing's that. Does it does it hinder my progress? I mean, in a sense, it might because I pick him up from daycare every day. So, like, I gotta stop at 4, 4:30, then I gotta I usually do, like, bedtime. I'm kinda like his when especially right now.
Troy:My wife's, like, 37 weeks pregnant, so I'm kinda doing everything right now. And then when he goes to bed, I'm exhausted. I kinda just wanna go to bed. But also at night, like, a lot of times, I'm very productive. So it's this weird balance.
Troy:I would say, like, yeah, it probably hinders the progress, but it's worth it. Because the dude, he's 2a half now. He's he's fucking dope. He's super cool.
Dean:Yeah.
Troy:Yeah. He's he's his name is Liam. He's he's so funny.
Dean:Irish name.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah. But for no reason. I'm not Irish.
Dean:Okay.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah. So there's that. There's everything's for for him and the future kid and the future family. But yeah.
Dean:Yeah. You know, the the the reason for doing things can be anything. A whole range of of things. And I think if you I think if you're, like, tuned into, like, why you are doing this, why am I working 12 hour days for a couple of years? Like, why is why am I working on the weekends?
Dean:Why am I choosing not to go out the odd week? Like, it it has to be for something. And I think if you're really clear on what that is, you can persevere through all the crazy difficulties that come your way when you're an entrepreneur.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah. Because they're coming. Absolutely. Yeah.
Troy:Absolutely. And and that's one thing about me is I don't I don't care about nice things at all. Maybe that changes. Right? Maybe you get tossed $10,000,000 after a sale or something like that, and you're like, oh, shit.
Troy:Now I want nice things. I don't know. But even, like, when when I was making good money in sales, like, I buy I try to find, like, all these dupes on Amazon for, like, Lulu stuff. Like, the actually, the joggers I'm wearing right now are the best joggers I've ever bought in my life. They're, like, $20 on Amazon.
Troy:But, yeah, there's that. I think for me, it's like, let me pay the kids school off. Let me pay the house off. And then, like, what we want is a lake home. That would be awesome to be able to go grab a lake home.
Troy:But other than that, car, I'll just drive whatever I have now. I don't care.
Dean:Yeah. No. Mine's a weird one because, you know, sales by its very nature is underpinned by money. That's that's why everyone's doing it. Nobody's going in there being like, oh, my whole life, I've just wanted to be in tax sales.
Dean:Like, I'm sorry to anyone who's in tax sales, but that's just not what your dreams are as a kid. And so you're in there for money. Right? And it gets to the point, at least it did for me, and it sounds like it kinda did for you. It was like, right.
Dean:Well, what do I want the money for at the end of the day? Like, what what is this serving? I'm not really spending it all. I'm kinda just keeping it. Like Yeah.
Troy:Oh, I
Dean:get this. Yeah. I'll just hang on to that. You know? And it it's this weird thing.
Dean:I actually I was in Egypt. Just to expand on that, I was in Egypt a couple of weeks ago, and I had this really wise Egyptian waiter. And he'd come and sit beside me and, like, sit down. He's like, Dean, how are you today? Blah blah blah.
Dean:And he was always dropping these, like, little nuggets of wisdom. And he was talking about money anyway because he was, like, the happiest fella in the world, like, in his fifties. Didn't give, you know, nothing for his son. And he was like, the thing about money is you only do 2 things with money when you have it. You either save it or you try and get more.
Dean:I was like, oh, shit. Yeah. You're so right. It's it's this weird psychology with money where it's like a scarcity mindset that it's it seems to be within everyone. Like, you know, no matter how much you get, it just never feels like enough.
Dean:And it's this weird relationship that so many of us seem to have.
Troy:I agree with that a lot. The the more and more money that I made, the more and more typically my wife would spend it. But the more, like, yeah, the more the more you you spend it and the more you're able to to do things, but then you have to continue to work harder to do those things. And, yeah, it is. It it is this weird thing.
Troy:It's the root of all evil, man. Everybody everybody wants it, and they'll do everybody has a price for something, and it's crazy. Money is
Dean:It's a weird thing. But, like, I I feel like I'm trying to get into the habit now of actually spending it. Like, actually pissing away my money and enjoying it, you know. Yeah.
Troy:I'm not
Dean:sure if you've ever heard of, Bill Perkins, but I saw him on, dude's podcast who I listened to and he wrote a book called Die With 0. And the whole premise of the book is to fucking enjoy your money, you know. You've got all that coming in. He's like a multi 100 and 100 of millions. And he's just like, you know, spend your money.
Dean:Enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna get more. It's It's got like, it's not like you're never gonna get anymore.
Dean:Spend it. Enjoy it. Yeah. Obviously, make investments, be smart with it, you know, park off what you need, rainy day, fun, and all that stuff, but spend the rest of it. Treat yourself.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah. My my wife's, her my my in laws, my wife's parents, they're they're retired. They both work in government, so it's not like they made a ton of money. They're both, like, local gov and stuff like that.
Troy:And so the thing is, they get a decent amount of money from from retirement here in the states. And so they make a decent amount of money. They don't work, and that is they they say it all the time. Like, they pretty much buy us. Like, if we go out to dinner, they'll buy it, like, a 100% of the time or they'll do whatever.
Troy:Like, they pay for so much shit, and they're like, you can't take it with you. And I'm like, you're you're right. You can't take it with you. But so they just, yeah, they're just fucking living it up, and they're like, hey. We got maybe 10, 15 good years left.
Troy:And then after that, we're we're at a huge decline, so let's just spend it while I can.
Dean:Fuck. Yeah. And and to bring this all back to, like, you know, being in a job that you're just dissatisfied with, it's like, at least for me, it got to the point where I was like, okay. I need money. I'm aware I need money, but I don't want to just have to hate what I do to get it.
Dean:Mhmm. Let me either automate the money or at least do something that I like to retrieve it. And that's kinda what led me to build a business, and then that's what kinda led me to this, which is I'm just I'm enjoying this podcast now. I don't really I'm not doing it for money. At least, it'd be great if it does eventually, but I'm just enjoying it.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah. No. It's fun. And these conversations are really fun because there are so many people out there that would just the golden handcuffs on that think that if they stay at their company a little bit longer, they'll make so much more money.
Troy:But and then they give up their dreams, man. A lot of people there there was a guy that I had a call with maybe about a month ago or so. A month ago or so. And his business idea was so simple, but I thought it was so impactful. And it would be like some sort of PLG motion where you kinda just get people to sign up and they pay monthly or whatever it is.
Troy:But I was like, this is fucking genius, and this is sick. But he's like, yeah. I just don't know how to start it, though. And I'm like, I'll tell you exactly how to start it and everything. Just go fucking do it.
Troy:He's like, alright. Like, maybe after the holidays, I'll do it. I'm like, dude, this is something where you wanna get an engineer on and start now because
Dean:Yeah.
Troy:It's such a good idea. It's a it was a very acquirable business. It's not an IPO type business. It's just like, there's one little feature. This would save a lot of people some time.
Dean:Yeah.
Troy:I should build. But, anyhoo, I don't know.
Dean:That's People like Batman's people like that who just need a little tip. Tip tipping over and off they go. Yeah. But, dude, you've got such an inspiring story. You know, the fact that you've left sales, you're building this business, you have a big dream ahead, you know where you're going, you know why you're going there.
Dean:I think it's brilliant. And if anyone wants to follow your shit, I highly recommend they do so on LinkedIn. You put out great content, by the way. Very, very informative, useful. And, yes, it's been a pleasure having you on, man.
Dean:Really, really great chat.
Troy:Yeah, Dean. Thanks for having me. This is this is one of the more fun ones I've been on, so I appreciate you having me.
