Work Worth Doing

menu close

#15 - Tommy Lewis on How to Replace a 9-5 with Your Passion

/ 02:11:37/E15
Dean:

Hey. Welcome back. Before we get into the episode with Tommy, I am going to explain to you a little bit about why I've chosen to give a new title to the show. So if that's not something you're overly interested in hearing about, you can skip ahead to about the 3 minute mark, and then I will introduce the episode with Tommy. So on the subject of the rebrand, I would like to give you an idea of why the subtle change matters.

Dean:

So if you think about the previous title of Quitable, right, what does that mean? It means you can quit your job. It means that is an option for you. It means if you are working in a capacity that is purely to receive money and you do not find any joy in doing so, leaving is an option for you, and here's ways you can do it. That was the meaning of it.

Dean:

That was the essence of it. But what I found as a title was, on the one hand, people didn't quite get it straight away. Not everyone understood it immediately. And that's, you know, from the point of view of sharing a message, it's it's not ideal. And the second thing was, for me, when I thought about that title, I never felt quite settled on it because I felt it left the question out of, yes, I can quit my job, but then what?

Dean:

And so that was a gap I felt like the title didn't quite close. Now fast forward to the new title. Where the hell did this come from? If you were here on episode 9 you might remember Joe Caulfield. Joe Caulfield said an absolute ripper of a line to me.

Dean:

Now if you didn't hear that let me explain so you understand. He said the greatest gift that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing. And now if you think about that, we all have to work. Even if you win the lotto, I'm sure you wouldn't want to just spend your whole life on a beach drinking pina coladas. Probably will get a bit old after a week or 2.

Dean:

Point is we all have to do something. We have to give something of ourselves. And what this show aims to give you is the ability to step away from work that doesn't matter to you, to find something that does matter to you. I myself have found something now that matters to me and I'm pouring myself into it. And that is a great gift to be able to do that as Joe correctly said.

Dean:

It might be that you're building a business that allows you to step away from your job that you don't like. That's work worth doing because it expands your financial horizons. Perhaps work worth doing to you is posting about your passion on social media. Maybe you love pottery. Maybe you love the Premier League, and you wanna post about it online.

Dean:

That's work worth doing. Perhaps it's creating a non for profit and helping people that are less off than you. That's work worth doing. It's personal to you, and that's the gap that I feel this new title has now bridged with the show. If you've been around with me since the early days or have listened to any previous episodes, we will never forget the title Quitable, and it will always live on as a relic.

Dean:

So now let me get into the interview with Tommy. What do we discuss in this interview? We discuss Tommy's rise on social media through posting about a subject that he is passionate about. He gives a ton of value in the subject of running and more specifically in ultra running, which is running over 100 kilometers over the mountains, which is crazy. As you'll come to see in the episode, Tommy and I are actually very close friends, and the fact that he has now quit his job in pursuit of the thing that he is passionate about after being a soundboard for me when launching my own podcast, the stars just align so much here.

Dean:

And that's why this interview is a little bit longer because I thought it would give us the chance to flesh out these subjects. If you do stick around for the entire episode you will learn how to find the thing that you are passionate about and eventually get it to a place where you can make it your full time gig. You'll also notice in the second half of the interview Tommy and I open up a little bit, we start to get a little bit more relaxed and actually start to touch on this subject with a lot more passion. And if you happen to be one of the many people who Tommy and I have actually previously worked with once upon a time, we do actually mention you as well. So without further ado, let's get into this interview.

Dean:

I hope you enjoy this episode, I hope you take something from it, and I will catch you on the other side.

Tommy:

I think it makes I think it makes a good difference. It's like when, as a drummer, I always used to, like, wanna get those on the wall because it just soaks up the sound. This is probably quite an echoey room, And then you add some stuff to it, but it's a pretty empty room so you gotta add these as well.

Dean:

Alright. Let's dance. Dude, you've got a incredibly interesting mind. I will start by saying that. And beautiful way with words.

Dean:

I remember when we first had our first chat in the kitchen in the office, I was like, Tom's a good guy.

Tommy:

Yeah. I remember. No. No. It was, we're having lunch.

Tommy:

Lunch. Yeah. And then our friend, Zoras, turned to you and turned to me and said, Tommy, have you met Dean? And I was and I was I sort of, like, oh, yeah.

Tommy:

Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy:

No. Yeah. We've kind of met. And Zoras was, like, you indeed had got on. You know, you guys yeah.

Tommy:

Yeah. He said something, like, about deep thinking, or do you just love to love to chat. Deep shit. Deep shit. Yeah.

Dean:

Alright. Let's get into it. You did something this week that most people would only ever dream of. You handed in your notice in the job that you had no passion for to instead do something that actually lights you up. How did it feel like that morning when you woke up and you're like, I'm doing it today?

Tommy:

Yeah. That's a good question. You're good at this. Yeah. How did it feel?

Tommy:

I think the morning of you it just felt it felt very right. I've been thinking obviously been thinking about it for a while, but I sort of put it off for a fair amount of time because I've wanted, like, this time I quit this job to be, like, the like, the the ultimate time. So, yeah, I was mostly just grateful. You know what, I was thinking pretty I was being pretty grateful, I was feeling pretty grateful, morning off. Because the job I've had for the last 2 years where we met has been the best job I've ever had.

Tommy:

Like in terms of just the the setup and the, you know, the culture and the people and the product itself, yeah, everything has has felt like a bit of a gift for the last 2 years, so I didn't wanna, like, run away from it too soon, ungratefully. So I think but but I ultimately felt like it was the right time. Like, I you and I have spoken about it for a while. I think the time I was thinking about doing it in January. You know, you come into the new year, fresh start and all that sort of stuff.

Tommy:

But I don't know. The more I think about it, the more a new year is just like an arbitrary moment. And actually the reality is that I wanna be fully set up with what I'm doing, like, by the end of the year and running into the new year when yeah. So it it felt it felt right. You know?

Dean:

Were you like, this is, like, the peak of is this the start or maybe the end of my movie?

Tommy:

Yeah. No.

Dean:

The end of one movie.

Tommy:

The end of the movie is actually starting the drama. You know what? Right? New new chapter. It's it's it's good.

Tommy:

Yeah.

Dean:

Yeah. I think let's probably let's go back a little bit and and kind of frame this whole thing. So it'd be good to get an understanding of did you, like me and many others, just stumble into a sales role?

Tommy:

Yeah. Basically. Like, fresh out of uni. When I was at uni, I wanted to join the military. My dad was in the army, for most of his career, and the whole time, I was alive growing up.

Tommy:

My dad was in the army, so it was very sort of familiar in that sense. I sort of always ironically joke and say the safe option was joining the army. Yeah. So I really wanted to join the military, and then I sort of realized I went through the whole process and then sort of realized, like, I don't do I don't do too well under authority or at least that style of authority, and so they they funnel you out pretty successfully. And, yeah, I was sort of given the pretty, like, obvious facts that I wasn't really necessarily completely suitable for it.

Tommy:

And then what I meant was when I was leaving uni, I had no no idea what I was gonna do. The world was my oyster, but I had no clue. And a good friend of mine, Grom, sort of introduced me to his, his boss, his senior staff, and they took a punt on me. And some sort of pretty average uni grad was given a job in m and a tech sales, and that was my entrance into sales, my baptism by fire. And then from there, it was sort of I there, I started to realize how much I liked business generally.

Tommy:

I started to understand like mergers and acquisitions and how like businesses and assets were sold and bought, IPO's, the whole process of that, SEC filing, all that sort of stuff. I was fascinated by oh, this is how business really works. You know, people start businesses, sure, you have an idea and you give value to customers, but then in terms of real sort of big corporate business, you're you're talking about, you know, buying and selling assets and how that all worked was fascinating to me. So I got that kind of introduction, and then, like, every job after, about a year and a half in, it was pretty dry to me, and, you know, the novelty wore off, and so I started something new. Went into the cannabis industry, the medical cannabis industry, which, back in 2018, that was a pretty nascent pretty nascent industry, and definitely niche.

Tommy:

But it was fascinating to me, the kind of alternative medicine space and the power that had for some people. And I really believed in it, and so we I was part of the team that essentially built the first, like, import and distribution service for medical cannabis in the UK. So it was, like, super exciting. We were, like, in the news, and, you know, we were sort of doing a lot of PR, and there was it was definitely it was sort of the topic of discussion in the news at the time with sort of medical cannabis. Since then, a lot more has overtaken it in terms of more interesting subject matter.

Tommy:

But, yeah, I loved it when I was there. I had to leave for, I guess, like, political reasons within the business, ultimately, and then moved on to work for a Fintech, Danish Fintech. It was SaaS Sales again. I was sort of, like, I don't know, grew pretty bored of it after about a year.

Dean:

This is job 3 then.

Tommy:

Job 3 now.

Dean:

And you were 8 uni when you got into the first one then, and it just kept rolling?

Tommy:

I I was I was 21, so I was 21.

Tommy:

So I

Tommy:

was 21. Out of uni. Yeah. Yeah. And then back in 2018 was, like, when medical cannabis was legalized in the UK.

Tommy:

And I think it was 2019 that I actually joined, if I'm right.

Dean:

But you never thought you were, like, gonna get into sales? This kinda just was happenstance after

Tommy:

you got out of

Tommy:

the union? Sales stuff. Yeah. It was just like I think when you have some soft skills, people Let's go. Take a punt on you.

Tommy:

I mean, we can get into the actual skills that sales does give you with experience, but in terms of getting into it, it's the best one if you just got decent soft skills. So, yeah, they took a punt on me. And then I did various sales roles since then, but it was definitely something I fell into. Yeah. Yeah.

Dean:

Yeah. It's so common. I mean, I I was certainly one just like that out of uni. I just jumped into I was selling oil. I said this before in an episode, but I was just selling

Tommy:

When you when when you said that, I was like, no way.

Dean:

That's the

Tommy:

most, like, rogue. That's the most rogue shit to be selling fresh, like Wow. It was fresh. Like, it's so random. Like, I think tech techs are really common one.

Tommy:

Like, people fall into tech. I mean, like, arguably every business in some capacity is a tech business. But when you're talking about, like, SaaS sales, like software as a service, that's a really common one to fall into, I think. Sure. But, yeah, oil, man.

Tommy:

That's Brutal. Quite like that.

Dean:

Totally brutal. So what were the things, like, because it everyone has a backstory how they got in, and I think it's quite clear to me and to you that a lot of people don't necessarily love what they're doing. But what, like, are the things that you didn't actually like about it? And this is probably different for everyone, but what are the things you didn't like?

Tommy:

I think very initially the first thing that really, like, was the obvious thing that I didn't like was the repetition. So So when you first go into sales, you usually enter, which you've spoken about before on the podcast, you usually enter in as, like, a BDR or SDR or what, like, inside sales rep or whatever they call it. And that's just, like, hitting the phones. It's like old school boiler room stuff. So sending out a bunch of emails, personalizing the message, you know, churning it out, numbers game, all that sort of stuff.

Tommy:

And it's just, like, repetitive. All you're all you're trying to do is book meetings for people who take the meeting. And I think that's really brutal stuff. Like, that's why I call it a baptism by fire because it's, like, pretty mind numbing. Like, there's some people that that I remember just I remember thinking, looking at my colleagues, still to this day, loads of respect for these people, still connecting in some in some capacity with them.

Tommy:

But I remember seeing them, looking at them, and just thinking, you're wired differently to me. You're just wired

Dean:

differently to me. Loved it?

Tommy:

They just yeah. They could do it. They were just sort of, like, churning out every day, Monday to Friday. I don't think they loved it. I just think they were just, like, okay with just doing that.

Tommy:

Just that one task of booking meetings is all they needed to do. And I was I think I was just so creatively fired up in my head, so imaginative, so I wanted to do so much more that it just frustrated me that I was doing this one thing. And I was also young and impatient, and I didn't recognize that you had to do when you enter the working world, suddenly, you know, you're figuring out your own thing. You didn't really necessarily realize that you have to spend a certain amount of time doing one thing, prove that you're an expert in that, move on, whatever. It was only 5 months, really, until I it was 5 months until I moved on to be an account manager.

Tommy:

So the people that took a punt on me initially took another punt on me again. I think they just sort of believed in, I don't know, my communication skills or how I held myself or something, and they put a punt they they, you know, threw me into the deep end again as an account manager. And that was when I really got my, like, proper sales stripes, I think. Yeah.

Dean:

That that leap from SDR to account manager at the time feels like the best thing ever as well.

Tommy:

Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy:

You're

Tommy:

like, fuck. Yeah.

Tommy:

Like, a

Dean:

little bit more money.

Tommy:

Yeah. It wasn't heaps of money either, by the way.

Dean:

Wasn't it?

Tommy:

That first job, although it was, like, tech sales, it was pretty old school legacy tech. And the money could have been good if you stuck out. Like, some it depends on the it depends on the company you work for. But some companies, you know, the the the company itself only sees the money 6 months down the line. And it could be you in that in those days, I could close a deal that was, like, a 12 month contract.

Tommy:

And, really, they'd only receive the bill at the end because it was dependent on how much they essentially used the product. It was dependent on how many pages went through the product. So it was all all of these legal and financial documentation that would be hosted on our product, and depending on how much of that was in there, you'd charge literally per page. And so you'd you'd right, you know, you'd be charging 70p a page, but there'd be, you know, hundreds of thousands of pages on a any given thing. So it was big deals, but, yeah, you you didn't I didn't get paid heaps.

Tommy:

But I definitely remember in terms of status and recognition and all that sort of stuff, it was like, yeah. Yeah. This is this is great. This is where I wanna be. But in terms of what I hated, I mean, one of it was repetition.

Tommy:

Another thing that's just stayed true throughout my sales career, and I think this maybe is different if you if you go really sort of high up into more sort of strategic sales with very large enterprises. But I just always found that even in the best deals, even in the best sort of most collaborative, most mutually beneficial deals, people still don't really wanna hear from you. Mhmm. Like, that was the thing that kept me kept annoying me. It's just, like, the lack of respect for salespeople.

Tommy:

You've You know?

Dean:

You've got your hand out a little bit.

Tommy:

Yeah. It feels like I mean, it's not there's nothing wrong with that. It's kind of part of business.

Dean:

That's yeah. I get that is a good point. It is part of any business, but I know what you mean. That feeling of this this, like, this like, a 10% resistance to, like, everything.

Tommy:

Yeah. You're always trying to convince them to be your friend or be interested in what you're saying or, like, be interested in the value you're proposing, constantly selling, selling, selling. And I think the easiest, the best sales are the ones where the person buying really wants it, understands the value of it. And in SaaS sales, it's difficult to communicate that. You know, sometimes you're communicating to some people who don't really think about ROI.

Tommy:

Sometimes you are, but then you're communicating things that they don't understand. They don't understand the impact of the technical thing you're selling. So it's like some you're constantly convincing, constantly trying to, you know, get them to understand what you're trying to say, and and that's difficult. It's it's pretty draining.

Dean:

The thing is, though, it's, like, it's it's tolerable because Yeah. Nowadays in a SAS office, it's actually sweet. You know, it's like when I tell some people about the luxuries I had, people would be shocked. People like, I I remember, like, chatting to somebody who's a nurse or somebody who is in the civil service or whatever. And I'm like, yeah.

Dean:

I actually had, 3 course meal. I had a bottle of wine, full night I paid for, and I'm fuming about it. And they'd be like

Tommy:

Yeah. Well, it's mad. And what people don't necessarily understand is, like, modern, like, you know, Silicon Valley tech, all that sort of stuff. The margins are silly. Like, if you if you were to speak to a business person from a 100 years ago and tell them that you have a 90% or 80% margin on your product and the product isn't even a tangible thing, and it's on something called the Internet, and we just sell access, like, they would be like, what are you on about?

Tommy:

But it's just the truth. Like, there's big margins and it's also, I mean, not so much now because, you know, the the markets have changed and many businesses are obviously, like, chasing profitability. But especially before you had very cash heavy, so, like, just cash mattered.

Dean:

Loads of money.

Tommy:

You know, other people's money. They're running on OPM. OPM, other people's money. You know, it's just constantly you got these, like, very good fundraisers leading companies, and then they have, like, a ton of money, but they don't actually haven't got, like, proven profitability. And so you just had, like, low especially a couple of year few years ago, you just had loads of businesses with loads of money.

Tommy:

Yeah. And they just don't know how to spend it, essentially. Or they just can't spend it quick enough.

Dean:

But you've gotta keep people happy, especially when they're doing something. Like, people in a SaaS role, like, they're actually very valuable to you. Like, you'd wanna be spending money to keep them. They're making you a fuck ton of money.

Tommy:

Yeah. And, I mean, that's, like, there's part of it in there. Like Yeah. Yeah. You gotta I mean, yeah.

Tommy:

You're, you're always gonna be kept you're always gonna be kept in something that, like, is good for a lot of reason. I think, especially in my recent role, it was difficult to it was difficult to, like, be annoyed at the role, at the thing you're doing. So you're doing the thing, and you feel like, oh, I'm just complaining I'm complaining because someone doesn't wanna receive my email. Boo hoo. Like, get over it, you know?

Tommy:

My dad went to war. It's not like a big deal. I'm just at a desk, like, doing a thing. And anything I say about not liking my career, ultimately,

Tommy:

it's

Tommy:

a privileged conversation to even have. You know, I

Tommy:

fully recommend it.

Tommy:

That's the

Dean:

big caveat. It's always the caveat. You know?

Tommy:

Always. But I think it's it's important to constantly think about where you are most suitable because a happy you is a productive you, and if you're doing the most, if you're doing something that, like you said at the start, lights you up, then, you know, that's really all that matters because you're gonna be most valuable to the people around you if it lights you up, if you're bringing your full self to it. And ultimately, every single time I was in a role that wasn't correct for me, wasn't quite right for me, a year in, a year and a half in, I just started to really feel it heavily, like, this heavy feeling of this isn't what I'm supposed to be doing, this isn't what lights me up, it drains me, like, I I feel even though I'm getting a free lunch and I'm getting, you know, an amazing office and amazing people around me and all these benefits, I still go to work dreading it. I still dread every call I have for no good reason other than I just can't face, you know, being in that call again. It just it drains me.

Tommy:

No matter what it is, it could be something that someone else looks at and thinks, I would love to do that. But if it's not right for you, then it's not of benefit to the people around you in the in the world generally, I think. Like, you gotta find the thing that actually is your thing, and I've just always felt, like, this sort of burning desire to try and find that really.

Dean:

I wanna get to all the running and shape that journey and intertwine it with this as well. But just staying on this for a second, like, that feeling of, you know, it's not that bad, but just inside you after a while, after a period, you just feel like there's something more and, like, I have to give I have to do something different with my entire life. This can't just be the one thing I do. And, you know, Gallup study, like, they in the UK, over 90% of people are dissatisfied, disengaged with their job. And I think that what we just you just described really well is part of it.

Dean:

Yeah. And I think most

Tommy:

of those people don't realize that it can be another way. Yeah. Like, reality is most people say they're dissatisfied with one breath, and then say, but that's just the way it is with another. Like, that doesn't, you know, everyone feels like that. You know, a job's a job, work is work, you know, and I think you can go beyond that and do yourself some respect by saying you are actually capable of putting your mind to something that is gonna be way more important to the people around you and to you, and, you know, your 50 year old self, 60 year old self will thank you for doing that.

Tommy:

But if you it's just stuck in something kind of knowing you don't like it and sort of complaining about it, and just just saying to yourself that it can't be another way, I I think you need and that's why I wrote, like, that's why I really believe in this, like, what you're doing here. And, you know, it's hard starting out a podcast, really trying to sort of put yourself out there and put what you believe out there. It's really tough. But the ultimate vision of this podcast and everything you're doing, I believe, is trying to have people realize that it like, there is a path outside of this. There is a there is something you can do today, every day to just increase the chances that you can actually get out of the current job you're in that isn't serving you.

Tommy:

Like, that's I feel like I'm using your words. Yeah.

Tommy:

We we love We love

Dean:

at length. Yeah.

Tommy:

I just, like, because it's also been something that I've been passionate about, you know? The belief that you can actually, like, put the work in. You can do it. You can try and, like, put your mind to something that lights you up and energizes you and it's just better for the people around you. And I just believe really strongly.

Tommy:

There's so there are so many people that just have so much potential that's just not untapped. It's not tapped, you know. It's it's untapped potential.

Dean:

And the thing is it's so hard to get to, like, bring yourself to that point. Yeah. Like and and and I'll say this and I fucking say it publicly now. You were an instrumental part of me doing this because you were encouraging me. You were reminding me of why this is important and why it's important to me and to other people as well.

Dean:

So Yeah, man. You know, it's something we I think we both connect over. Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy:

Many a sauna session. Many a sauna. Yeah. Many a sauna and ice plug sessions. Therapy.

Tommy:

Do you

Dean:

know funny enough, Frank?

Tommy:

I

Dean:

was reading a book recently called the or 4000 Weeks. Yep. Don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it talks about what we just talked about there, which is like the concept of a job and how that actual like, even that thing, right, it wasn't really around up until the industrial revolution when just time became like a commodity in that sense. Like, it I mean, it kinda I think he said it came around when it was farming to some degree but then the industrial revolution created shift work and selling batches of your time. So, like, that's actually the only kind of a new thing.

Dean:

Traditionally, we would have been little if you go way back, little group, me, you, the lads, and their parents. And somebody go get a bit of grub, somebody wash the clothes, somebody get water, and we come back.

Tommy:

That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was thinking about this when I didn't I think I said to you, I was thinking about this with the the concept of the 9 to 5. Yeah.

Tommy:

Of the of the 5 day working week. Yeah. And how, like, 9 to 5, that's 8 hours. And there was, like, a pitch from, I guess, like, the people, of all of these factories, like, you know, all these car factories. So you have all these car factories, and people saying, we don't wanna be working ridiculous hours.

Tommy:

And so you had, the unions sort of rise up and say, we want 8 hours of work, 8 hours of sleep, and 8 hours to do what we want. And that was essentially the kind of pitch. And I think it was Henry Ford that first sort of agreed to that, and it was like a massive move in workers' rights to get the 9 to 5 instead of just factory working. So the 9 to 5 itself is suited for a factory environment. And now we just sort of we kind of just accept that all jobs, even the ones where you could just take your laptop and work from home, it's it's still 9 to 5, like, this expectation that we all work the same hours.

Tommy:

Whereas, like, we have the ability to schedule emails. We have the ability to, you know, mute our emails and not look at them and sort of send people emails at a different time, but have them respond, you know, throughout the day. Everything can be done remotely and very efficiently. We don't necessarily always need to be always need to be on at the same time. There are there are ways that we can work differently.

Tommy:

I just find it very interesting that, like, this idea of 5 days a week, 9 to 5, it just is mad. And I've spoken to you about as well. We actually just drove through we just cycled through Mile End together. And I said to you, I used to live here. It wasn't a very great time for me.

Tommy:

And when I when you asked me as well, what was the one thing you hated about sales initially? The repetition.

Tommy:

I

Tommy:

got to a really

Dean:

I

Tommy:

I immediately when I started work outside of like, fresh out of uni, I started work. A few months in, I got really pretty down. I don't wanna use the the other d word because I don't know if I was clinically depressed, but I was very sad because of the repetitive 7 day week, it was 5 2, 5 2, 5 2, 5 2, 5 2, 5 2, 5 2, and that was just ringing through my head, just this idea of just, wait, so we just do this? I'd gone all through school, I'd, like, explored all these different things, I'd gone through I've gone to university, explored something, you know, done loads of stuff, and then I went into work and I was doing a sales role, and it was 5252-5252, and I was like, when do we we only take a break when we ask permission to do so, and then we can take a week off, and then we go back to that rhythm, and it would just it sent me west. I was just, like, this is nuts.

Tommy:

And I got over that eventually, the idea that, like, this this structure, you know, exists for a reason and, you know, it's helpful. So it helped me get out of that, but it was like a sudden shock that so I just have to, like, do this now. And it really felt like that kind of factory worker do the thing under the cosh.

Dean:

Yeah, I struggle with that. And just you're just exchanging time in order to receive money. That's it. Here, have my time.

Tommy:

Yeah.

Dean:

There you go.

Tommy:

I mean

Dean:

That that book, man, that book really made me rethink, not, like, fundamentally, but, man, it gave me some things to think about with regards to time. And I pulled a quote from it. Right? I think you're gonna love this quote. Let me read this to you.

Dean:

This is a beauty. Our lives, thanks to their finitude, are inevitably full of activities that we're doing for the very last time. Just as there will be a final occasion on which I pick up my son, I thought that appalls me, but one that's hard to deny since I surely won't be doing it when he's 30. There will be a last time that you visit your childhood home or swim in the ocean or make love or have a deep conversation with a certain close friend. Yet, usually, there'll be no way to know in the moment itself that you're doing it for the last time.

Dean:

And, indeed, there's a sense in which every moment of life is a last time. It arrives, you'll never get it again, and once it's passed, your remaining supply of moments will be one smaller than before.

Tommy:

Bruh. Yeah. Man, it's good. You know, I think I remember, I think it was Sam Harris. I remember him talking once about that exact thing, and he's talking talking about it in the in the context of being present and mindfulness.

Tommy:

And he told a story about and it always stuck with me, about he doesn't go skiing much. He's been he's been skiing a fair amount of times in his life in his life, but he hasn't been for ages. And it may well be that the last time he went was the last time he'll ever go again. It's probably unlikely he's gonna go skiing, all this sort of stuff, and he took that completely for granted. But had he known that that last time he went skiing would be his last time, he would have been far more present and he would have enjoyed the moment a lot more.

Tommy:

And that's always stuck with me, you know. It's like every time you're doing something even when you're sometimes you do have those moments where you're, like, very grateful, and you're like, this is it. This is you know, the moments where you say this is the life, you're just very present. I kinda just had one. Yeah.

Tommy:

Yeah. Nice. Nice.

Dean:

Yeah, dude. So I think time is just so intertwined in this whole subject because someone who is where you have just been and I was and who feels the same way we feel, When you I feel like when you think about your time that way, you can't help but just feel some compulsion or, like, sort of being pulled towards something feels hard to actually get away from.

Tommy:

Yeah.

Dean:

Right. So you finally did it. You've done the fucking thing. That's right. So you've done this and obviously we're gonna get into social media.

Dean:

I wanna get into, like, your journey with running as well. But let's start by saying what the hell is so good about running?

Tommy:

And what's so good about running? Yeah. Don't so I never know how to answer this because, like, reality is not everyone's gonna love running, but I do I do believe that there are a lot of people that could love running and and think they, you know, think they hate it. I do love running, obviously, But I guess I could tell you what I love about it, like, personally. I I mean, I I love I love that it's just a natural movement.

Tommy:

It's it's very accessible. You can just get out and, like, just go for a run. Like, it really simplifying it, you can just go out with some shoes, some shorts, and a t shirt, and a sports bra and go for a run. Like, I won't be wearing the sports bra usually.

Dean:

I think you should potentially consider it.

Tommy:

Maybe. Yeah. I remember you

Dean:

telling me in this in the kitchen, actually going back to that what we said earlier, that first interaction. And I remember you said to me, you mentioned ultras. And I was like, oh. Yeah. Really?

Dean:

Yeah. And then I was like eyes lit up. I was like, woah. I've never met a dude who's done an Ultra. And I just was so curious about what goes through your head on an Ultra.

Tommy:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dean:

How how like, this time you're just out there. Because, you know, I I go to the gym. Right? I've been on a run before. I get it.

Tommy:

And I wanna say the the first time we I don't think I brought it up. I didn't I didn't just go, hey, yeah, I'm Tommy. By the way, I run ultra marathon. Making it sound like yeah. I do I mean, I do break it out.

Dean:

Yeah. For clarity, I mean, the phrase,

Tommy:

he I think Zarras was like by the way, I think he's like a runner who does the ultras or something.

Dean:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I I I I went and just ran with it.

Tommy:

But, yeah, like, you were you were cute. One thing that was cool, you were very curious about that, and I love talking about that stuff. I mean, what I am very passionate about is is the ultra trail running. Like, running itself, I do love, and I've kinda got into it in my own way. But I've always felt pretty disconnected from runners and the running world generally.

Tommy:

When I started running, it was always a very individual thing for me. And I think there's a ton of people out there who are like this, so just go for a run. I always picture myself as the guy who didn't wear all the nice fancy running stuff, maybe just had a hoodie on and then going out and just doing my running. Slowly but surely I started to find things within running that really resonated with me and that I really liked. Usually those things were the really long distance kind of, oh, that's a mad challenge.

Tommy:

Like, you know, that guy sort of run or I'd see an article on a guy who's done, like, a triathlon. You know, the he's done a triathlon equivalent of the length of the UK, you know, for each discipline or whatever. I'd be like, woah, that's a mad thing. Or I'd hear about Ultraman or Ironmans. I was really obsessed with that longer distance triathlons and all that sort of stuff.

Tommy:

And then it was actually in COVID, the very first kind of lockdown, where I was watching a lot of YouTube. I used to watch these sort of running documentaries and stuff. But I remember when I was in lockdown, I remember really getting emotional about some of these documentaries. If you've never, like, watched them, there's just, like, a ton of really well produced, little, sort of running, ultra running docos on YouTube and all sorts. And they're always quite, like, emotional.

Tommy:

They bring you through the story of the of the runner and, you know, whether it's, like, Billy Yang or Westplate does some, like, real great ones where he documents his own race. He's been doing it for years. And I just felt like really some of them were, like, really long, like an hour long, you know, someone taking on, like, a 200 mile race and, like, documenting the whole thing. I would just I'd feel really emotional. I remember realizing this is this is the vibe that, like, within running that I that I love, like, this camaraderie, the culture.

Tommy:

Is it specifically, like, American trail ultras, some of the famous ones, like, Western States or documenting, like, Moab 240 and all those? I was just like, this is the this is the kind of complete vibe that I want, and I can see myself being a part of that. It's a love for the outdoors. It's a love for pushing the body to the limits and seeing what's possible, and it's this camaraderie where because every individual kind of is curious about their full potential, they also wanna encourage others to be curious alongside them so they can realize their own full potential and that other person's full potential together. It's like this real amazing, unique approach to running, but it's especially unique in within sport that you just don't see that heaps.

Tommy:

Like, there's a lot of competitiveness in a different way in other sports, I think. And something that really resonated with me was this ultra running. And that's what became a passion, I guess, like 4 4 or 5 years ago, was just this pursuit of, you know, longer, further, and more kind of in the same, just to sort of explore my own mind and explore what I was capable of. And then, when I started doing them, it was, you know, a real reality check that turns out ultras are really hard. Who'd have thought?

Tommy:

But it was this exploration of the mind, and there have been times where I've done, like, a mountain 100 k in the last couple of few years, and I've reached a level that I haven't yet reached. You know? And and I've sort of unlocked this new area of of my brain and potential and, like, headspace. And it's all through the physical endeavor of pushing yourself no matter what, like, giving yourself no choice but to take another step. And, you know, I think there's something beautiful about that.

Tommy:

And really my interest in running is less actually about splits and PRs and how fast can I go in carbon plated shoes, and far more about exploration of nature and of my nature, and of the, like, potential I have and the capacity I have to go further and do more? That's what I really love about it.

Dean:

Like, I I remember when you said that it kinda makes you emotional to me, and I I get that. I really do get that. And I think it's probably something to do with just the sheer scale of an ultra. It's like the great white shark of fitness pursuits. It's the I don't you know what I mean?

Dean:

It's like this big and and you said this actually before. It's like this unattainable thing before you do it, before you sign up, before it's, like, quote, unquote possible in your head. It's, like, it's so far away. So I get why it would be why you found that emotional.

Tommy:

Yeah.

Tommy:

And there's some there's something pure about it as well. Not to be on another podcast and talk shit about cyclists. I'm not I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. But it's a great example because cycling, there are some absolute beasts and records are are broken and, you know, there's all sorts of, you know, there's all sorts of technology in running, of course, as well.

Tommy:

But there's something more pure about running in my mind because it's just how far can you go, how much can you do on foot. Whereas, you know, something like cycling, there's a lot in the, you know, technology behind the bike and, you know, all of those sort of more obvious technological advancements. In my mind, whether it's true or not, I'm being very careful now because you might have Whatever. I've always have prefaced that I am a cyclist myself, maybe not as as avid a cyclist.

Dean:

I get what you're saying. Like, it's cycling's fine. It's it's it's not the same sort of you're you're not carrying your own body the way you

Tommy:

There's something pure about a a human just taking themselves by foot over the mountain, seeing how far they can go, just purely their body, how far can they take their body without any kind of necessarily any sort of all that much sort of technological assistance. I found I find that more kind of it's the same. I mean, if there was an ultra cycle, I would, you know, still be emotional about the amount they'd put into it and the amount of sacrifice that they'd made to get there and all that sort of stuff. But there is this purity to running that attracts me to running, especially in the context of, like, adventure and trails and going places, you know, you you haven't been before, like, very few people have been before, and the advantage that being fit enough has for people who are fit enough. Like, I've told this before, but I remember, I was doing Val Duran with a friend of mine, and Brim, and he and I got to the top of this climb, and it was like an insane climb.

Tommy:

We got to the top and the view in the Spanish Pyrenees was just like top, top stuff, and we really felt like we deserved it, and the only way, other than taking a chopper up there, the only way to get up there was by foot and by being fit enough, and he turns to me and he says, this is why it's good to be fit, or this he said something like this is why, you know, we can be grateful that we're fit, you know, and I was like, yeah man, not everyone gets to do this, you know, and I think there's that aspect of it which just is awesome to me, the ability to be 70 k into a race and be on the top of some crazy mountain you never would have been on top of had you not got into this stuff, you know. Yeah. I love that.

Dean:

Isn't it so beautiful that that is what's allowed you to escape what you felt like you were stuck to?

Tommy:

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it still stands as, I'm I'm very privileged because I'm, like, exceptionally passionate about it, and I wanna do the thing that lights me up, you know, for a living. But it's also available to people who don't wanna make it their career. You know?

Tommy:

Yeah. But, yeah, I feel very privileged.

Dean:

I think that, like, the whole concept of the length, like, the sheer pursuit. I remember watching your most recent one. I was actually in Albania. I was in a mountain myself.

Tommy:

Oh, yeah.

Tommy:

And

Dean:

me and Izzy were just watching your tracker, and it'd be, like, 5 hours in. Yeah. And not nowhere near nowhere near.

Tommy:

I'll be I'll be starting. I'm like, this

Dean:

this day has been running for 5 hours, and it would show your trajectory. You'd been up and down. And I could imagine, but I can't I can't I don't I don't I won't know until I do one. Right?

Tommy:

But

Tommy:

Yeah. And you are gonna do one.

Dean:

I did say that. I didn't

Tommy:

say that. I really think about it.

Dean:

Man, I do wanna do it. This I it you you can probably see in me when you speak to me about it. I get fucking like, I'm so drawn to it as well. I've just said it on a podcast now. I've kinda fucked it up.

Tommy:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dean:

I remember, the video as well when you posted it after and you're just, like, like running. You're like 10 k in. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just feeling alright.

Dean:

Legs are good. And you're like 20 k in. And then it'd be like 80 k in. And I'm like, fuck. 90 k in.

Dean:

Legs are starting to hurt now.

Tommy:

Yeah. It's funny watching, in fact, because, like, it's it's literally, like, a minute and a half. Oh, it's, like, whatever it was, like, 15 hours in a minute and a half, and it was absolutely brutal. But yeah.

Dean:

You said you I remember in one of the videos of you doing one that you you got emotional at the end, and it was your first one. What was that like?

Tommy:

Yeah. I mean, I get pretty I I do actually get a bit emotional at the end of all of them. Like, not not that emotional.

Dean:

Fuck, dude. I get I get emotional at the end of a 5 k sometimes.

Tommy:

All those endorphins. But the time to be set for that. You know? I've listened to podcasts and started tearing up on a run. Like, I think I feel more, like, emotionally delicate on a run.

Tommy:

But I think the one you're referencing is is Valderan, which is it's like my favorite it's like my favorite memory, my fave my favorite running memory. I always reference it as my favorite running memory because it was the first ultra north of a 100 k that I'd done. And, also, the context behind it was, actually, yeah, the the I wrote about this in the newsletter. But the context behind it was that actually about a year before or so, I was very lost. I was in a, like, really sort of self loathing kind of place.

Tommy:

And I I guess, like, had the story after that time was that I'd kind of built and built and built up to a point where I liked myself again. And it was all through the pursuit of running and ultra marathons that I'd found that. And so when I crossed the finish line of a 105, which ended up being always ends up being a little bit longer, 105 k mountain ultra, It took me like 21 hours and I was like, you know, really struggling right at the end. When I crossed the finish line, Lou was there egging me on, filming me finish, and I just felt a huge amount of self pride, but also in the moment was reflecting on how proud I was of myself and how much I liked myself and how much that juxtaposed how I felt a year ago. And, there was, yeah, there was definitely something kind of more powerful happening in that moment that, I don't think I'll ever forget.

Dean:

Yeah. That feels like that ultra was almost a representation of your previous struggle all ending at this point.

Tommy:

Yeah. And they sort they talk about they talk about a 100 milers, and they say it's a lifetime in a 100 miles. Yeah. Because you go through, you know, a huge amount, and sometimes you'll be, like, on top of the world. Sometimes you don't feel like you can continue.

Tommy:

Sometimes you find it in you to continue and then you feel on top of the world again. You open doors, you know, throughout an ultra of any distance, but when you're out for that long, it's chapters, you know, and you've got to kind of take whatever comes at you. It's a beautiful thing, bro.

Dean:

Why did you not like yourself before?

Tommy:

I had been through well, I was just I I'd been through a breakup that was that shoulda happened earlier, and it was my fault that it didn't. And I felt really heavy about that and then I sort of was, you know, I moved back because of that break, I moved back into my parents house. And I was like 26, didn't know what I was doing, had just broken up with someone in a, you know, not in a in a way that I well, it wasn't in a bad way. It was very amicable, but, you know, I I just felt like I should've done it earlier. And it was like I I've been lying for a long time.

Dean:

You felt guilt?

Tommy:

I felt a huge amount of guilt, and I also was in a job selling some random Danish Fintech financial tech software, and I just I didn't like it. And I just felt, like, really lost and, like, I was amounting to nothing. And, yeah, I just guess I just didn't see myself in a very positive light, to be honest. I think that's pretty common. Yeah.

Tommy:

But I knew like, I wasn't I wasn't I wasn't completely down and out enough to not do something about it. I'm I'm very action oriented and I think, like, I I feel most comfortable when I take action and I feel like I have agency and I'm in control, and that comes in my mind from taking action and doing something about it. And so that was the moment where I quit my job and I didn't have anything to go to. I just quit my job, had a small amount of savings because didn't spend much during COVID, and was on the pursuit to just try and find the thing that I was here to do that would be of value to others, you know, and I started doing all sorts. I was in like a bedroom in my parents' house just like I was like a conspiracy theorist.

Tommy:

There were post it notes on the wall. I was, like, doing it, like, all these sort of Venn diagrams, icky guy and all this sort of stuff. You know? I was just trying to find my thing, and I was just trying to find what I could what I could do. I didn't wanna be in the 9 to 5.

Tommy:

I wanna escape the thing. I wanna try and, like, find out what, you know, what energizes me, and I really took action. And I was working out a huge amount. I was running a huge amount. I was in seriously good nick.

Tommy:

I was just out in the hills, and slowly but surely I was starting to find a bit of, like, passion for things. And I just started doing, I started just taking action and finding the thing. And I started asking myself real fundamental questions and answering them childishly. So what I mean by that is if you are lost, if you don't know what you wanna do in life, ask yourself fundamental, really simple questions, and answer them in a childish way. The questions being, what drains you, what energizes you, what lights you up?

Tommy:

What could you talk about to your friends and talk their ear off about? What energizes you? When you're in the pub, when you find someone who's into a certain thing and you're into it too, what could you talk about all night long? What are you kind of thinking about, like in terms of the jobs you're doing, when you think about what are your skills or what are you good at, think about why you're good at that. If you're good at sales, why are you good at sales?

Tommy:

It's because you like people, you like talking to people, you like talking, you like communicating, you like presenting. Like, what are the real, like, simple things that you're good at? And start painting a picture of what you're good at, what energizes you, what drains you, and then you might start to figure out what sort of space you might want to work in, or what sort of roles really speak to your attributes and your characteristics. You've got to start somewhere, and I think if you get too locked into thinking about departments within a company, like, oh, I could be good at marketing, or I could be good at sales, or I could be good at finance, you're just limiting yourself. Think about why you'd be good at finance, think about why you'd be good at marketing, and answer the questions more childishly, more simply.

Tommy:

That's like, and that's what I started doing. I just like started writing down, asking myself all these questions, I had notes on my phone for days about all of these simple, like, questions to ask yourself to really investigate and go deep and and, you know, ask yourself what would your 7 year old self answer to this question.

Dean:

And so were you starting to like yourself at this point? Was this, like, the trigger turning point from that then?

Tommy:

I think I gave myself a lot of agency. I gave myself a lot of autonomy and ability to sort of free myself from the kind of traditional sort of expectations and went and pursued being a personal trainer. I did that extremely quickly. I was proud of how quickly I qualified even in COVID times when it was difficult to, like, book stuff, like, book I had to I remember going to I went to, like, Portsmouth for one of the sessions, and I went up to, like, somewhere near Nottingham for another one of the sessions. Got 2 got a good friend of mine, a friend of ours, Ben, to be the kind of, you know, the pretend client in one examination and then, like, another mate to be a pretend client in another examination.

Tommy:

Like, did it really quickly. I was proud of that, so I was giving myself evidence that I was capable of doing things. So, yeah, I guess I was starting to like myself more, but it took a long time. I think it took about a year and a half, really, until I was, like And

Dean:

then the end of that ultra was just like it all came together.

Tommy:

Yeah. And I feel I feel like that ultra because I was chasing a 100. I was chasing, like, a a mountain 100 k. And in my mind, it was a moment where I was, like, a bit more set in place.

Dean:

Were you posting at that time?

Tommy:

Or

Tommy:

So I I started posting, yeah, I started posting when I was figuring out my way. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I just I I fundamentally believe that, and we've spoken about this before probably, but I fundamentally believe that whatever you like in life, whatever lights you up, whatever hobbies or topics you are good at and passionate about, you should produce within those spaces.

Tommy:

And I only say produce because I don't think you necessarily need to think about making social media content or you necessarily need to think about being an influencer or any of sort of that kind of route. Not everyone's cut out to do that, but you need to produce in that space. So you need to provide value of some kind in that space. And with the Internet now, there's so many options for you to start producing, whether it's starting a blog and doing written, whether it's starting a face a Facebook page and, like, putting a group together and getting interest in that group, whether it's, doing recipes online and, you know, selling your recipe book or, you know, sharing it amongst friends. Whatever it is, it could be on social media but without your face, You know, you just have to produce and provide some sort of value.

Tommy:

And that's what I started doing. I was like, I'm gonna just start producing, running content because I'm into it. And then, I guess, like, just learn from there. Like, action, you know, lessons followed action, basically.

Dean:

It's a great way to do it. Find what you love. Yeah. Zero in on that. Post about it.

Dean:

Like you said, you can chat to if you can chat to somebody in a bar, like, with joy and with glee and knock knock back 3 pints and just continuously burn the ear off one another. That's your starting point.

Tommy:

Yeah.

Dean:

Post about that. See what happens after 2 years.

Tommy:

There are so many people into so much stuff that they and they just don't, like, do anything about it. Everyone loves something. So you you know and if you don't love something, you need to be starting you need to start doing more than your day job on Netflix because, like, you need to start, like

Dean:

What do you love?

Tommy:

What are you reading about online that's not social media? Like, if you were to get if you were to have an evening to yourself behind a laptop and all of, like, social media and stuff was gone, and maybe all of, like, online shopping was gone, what would you read about? What would you research about? What would you do on the Internet? Think about what you're interested in and how you can wriggle your way into that space and actually start making connections and start making, you know, start creating value for people.

Tommy:

There's a way to get into every space without any experience just by providing value in that space. I mean, that's all that all that business is. All that business is is saying to people, I can solve that problem for you, and then solving that problem and charging for it. That's all it is. And you can solve enough problems to build a reputation, or you can provide enough value to build a reputation, and all of a sudden, you can you can start selling that leverage.

Tommy:

That and that's I feel like that's really all it is in some way, and you can do that in a really simple way on the side. You can start providing value in a space that you care about on the side. The way you

Dean:

the way you've done it is, like, spot on. Like, you're actually the model student. If I was recruiting for somebody to be, like, the perfect model student who's got out of their job doing something that they absolutely love on the side successfully, bringing the finances up to a point, and then leaving? Nailed it. No.

Dean:

Yeah. You didn't nail it the first time, actually.

Tommy:

Well, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You can learn different from your mistakes. This is it as well.

Tommy:

I think, you know, optically, for other people, you need to not care about this. But optically, for other people, it could be that they only see the last 5 months and then think, oh, it's just all luckily happened for that guy. You know? Because visibly, it's it's 5 months. But, you know, as you know, the real story for me in my head started 8 years ago and I started producing content 4 years ago, but the journey of finding the thing, the effort, the investigation, the curiosity, all of that stuff, the never settling for a bog standard job, moving jobs, moving industries, doing the thing, trying to find my way, I've been doing it since I left uni.

Tommy:

And the reality is I've finally found that thing. It may optically look like it's, you know, my Instagram's popped off and so I've just started to monetize or I've just sort of left and I'm now a full time content creator, whatever. That's not actually the reality. The reality is 8 years ago, I was looking for the thing that lit me up. 4 years ago, I started producing running content.

Tommy:

2 years ago, I started realizing this was the the real shit. And now I'm in a position to actually go and make a business in a space that I've tried to build leverage in for the last 4 years. But, really, the investigate everything that's happening in the listener's head right now is the start of the journey.

Dean:

Go to to the drawing board, proverbial draw drawing board. Figure out whatever it is you love, start posting.

Tommy:

Stop posting. Start figuring out

Tommy:

what your

Tommy:

best what your best medium is. There's so many different mediums. You can post on social media. Sure. You but you can start creating.

Tommy:

Start start start producing.

Dean:

Was your goal when you started doing, like, your first post to was it always I'm gonna get out of my job someday with this? Was that it you knew straight away?

Tommy:

My goal when I started posting was to was to build some sort of leverage so that I would gain attention and potentially bring on clients for my PT business. So, you know, every PT out there should really be posting. I don't know. Unless they've got a perfect unless they're running a perfect little PT business, they've got enough clients, and they've got good word-of-mouth locally, whatever. Most PTs really who if they're trying to sort of have an online business of any kind should be posting on social media.

Tommy:

So yeah, just started posting to get clients initially, and then from there, I mean, just like the people, I would just get the occasional message that would make me go, oh, this has resonated with someone. Like, that's that's sick. Like, someone's really liked this video, really appreciates this.

Dean:

Were you enjoying the process anyway regardless?

Tommy:

Yeah. Yeah. I really liked it. I mean, even as a kid, I I made videos and stuff. Like, they weren't ever any good, but I would I would have yeah.

Tommy:

Like, a camcorder or or something. I'd make videos and, like, oh, even as a,

Dean:

like, really young and handheld camera.

Tommy:

Stuff like that. I was actually, I was at my parents' place recently. They're moving. And so we're, like, unloading all of the and it's my old my old, like, childhood room. Well, not really childhood room, but I was there from the age of, like, 16, 17 to, you know, early twenties, and they've lived there ever since.

Tommy:

And, so I was clearing out all this stuff from my childhood, like, in boxes, and there's, like, this old Toshiba camcorder and all my old Ipods and stuff. But I remember that camcorder. I used to make videos. I used to, like, stitch them up on Windows Media Player, you know. I always liked that kind of stuff.

Tommy:

I loved being creative, in that way. So social media for me was just a way to sort of revisit that. I was like, oh, yeah. I remember, like, cutting up videos and making videos. It was always something I really loved doing and thought I had an eye for.

Tommy:

And although my videos on social media, you know, argue arguably are pretty simple, I love the process. I love the process of creating a narrative, creating a story, communicating something, both audibly like, visually and audibly. Yeah. Your stories are great.

Dean:

I I do I always like, somebody mentions one of them, I'm like, oh, yeah. You should check out Tommy. It's it's good shit. And I remember looking because I went back. I went deep before we met up today.

Tommy:

Yeah.

Dean:

And I was just looking at some of them, and, you know, it's just wild to see how far it's come. And what was really motivating for me, especially as I am at the beginning or, like, earlier in my journey of this endeavor, was seeing you at, like, really low, relatively low to now amounts of views. So you'd have, like, couple thousand, which to you now, you hit a 140,000, by the way. So Yeah. Yeah.

Dean:

Yeah. Nice. Just

Tommy:

2 days ago Sick. Or or yesterday.

Dean:

But, like, if you got a 1,000 views now, you'd be like, right. Well, is the algorithm broken?

Tommy:

Yeah.

Tommy:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy:

Yeah. Yeah. Something's something's happened to that video. Everyone. Yeah.

Tommy:

Something's happened to a video if if it's that. It's it's nuts. I mean, I did that not long ago. I think I think it was actually just over just when I sort of when when when there was a 100000 people on Instagram. 100,000.

Tommy:

100,000. I was like, man, that's nuts. Like, that is bonkers. And, I remember going through old stuff, and it was like 10 likes, 15 likes, 2 likes, 20 likes, you know, single digits. Loads of, like, really just it's family and friends, like, good friends sort of liking, trying to support me for months months months, you know, and then eventually you start getting

Dean:

I could see when you got better. I could actually, like, tell. I was like, oh, I see what he's doing there.

Tommy:

I remember videos that did like, I scrolled through. I was like, I remember feeling like that one was, like, so good. I remember I remember being so ecstatic by how well that had done, and it's, like, 200 likes, which now, you know, is not is not very many to me because of the scale that it's grown to. Back then, I just remember being so psyched by that. I was just, like, 200 people have gone, yeah.

Tommy:

Give me some of that. Give me some of that.

Tommy:

And I

Tommy:

was like, yeah, man. That's 6. I want like, people are resonating with it. Like, occasionally I remember when my first, like, video that got 10 k views

Tommy:

Fuck.

Tommy:

Went up, and I was just like, 10,000 views, man.

Dean:

Dude, I saw it. Like, one of them I said because it was scrolling through. It was, like, 6,000, 4,000, you know, kinda around that rate. And then one of them was just 203 Yeah. Just out of nowhere.

Dean:

And it was on the 3rd February. I wrote it down. I was like, I'll see if he remembers this. Do you remember what

Tommy:

it was? February.

Dean:

Was it Last year,

Tommy:

2023. 3rd February 2023.

Dean:

Do you remember that video?

Tommy:

Right. Which one?

Dean:

It was actually just nothing noteworthy even. It was just you getting up at 5:30 in the morning showing that you were tired.

Tommy:

Really?

Dean:

Yeah. And it just boom. I was like, that must have been crazy because you always say to me with, like, making videos, don't, like, you know, don't always try and make it this big spectacle of a thing. Just put it out there.

Tommy:

Yeah. Yeah. Just try and

Dean:

put it. And this was the perfect example. I was, like, this is what he always fucking tells me.

Tommy:

That's

Tommy:

so interesting. So I was, like, getting up. I was, like, oh, I'm just getting out of 5 then. I'm I'm annoyed about that

Dean:

all night. This is 5:30 AM of runner. Just

Tommy:

Oh, my days. Yeah. It is funny. And do you know what? I've always said this to you.

Tommy:

If you churn out enough, you realize that sometimes the ones that do incredibly well are super low effort. And it's both really great and exciting, but also frustrating because there's so many videos you put loads of effort into and do dog shit, and then you put out a video that you've done in the back of a car because you're bored, and it just does incredibly well. I I remember doing this stupid meme one once, and if you watch people I remember this. Yeah. People just do nothing.

Tommy:

It was like one of the characters I forgot his name. It's a noisy because I'm a big fan. Well, he was just sort of saying, I can't remember what What

Dean:

was it again? He was yeah. He said something

Tommy:

very offhand. Something offhand, like, I don't really believe in I

Tommy:

don't really believe in time, you know, or something like that. You know? I think it's a conspiracy by the Illuminati. And I put the caption, like, when people ask me what my 5 k time is. And it was just kind

Dean:

of funny. Stupid. Yeah.

Tommy:

And it

Tommy:

did really well. And I was like, man, I put so much effort into all one post. And then I just, like, sort of scraped together some sort of slightly crappy meme thing. It does incredibly well. But, also, that's not there's actually, like, a there's something deeper to be said for that because, like, sometimes the the meme stuff, yeah, might do a bit of work.

Tommy:

It does well. It gives you a bit of dopamine because it does well, but no one's following a page for that. Sure. You know? Like, very few people are actually following a page for that content.

Tommy:

Really, the stuff that I feel most proud of is the stuff that provides real value, and people go, oh, that's so sick. You know? Thank you so much. I've been you know? And then they will follow because they want more of that kind of stuff.

Tommy:

But, yeah, it's funny how Yeah. You can just sort of nonchalantly put out, like, something crap, and then it does incredibly well. But that's it, man. Social media, I think what I've learned some of what I've learned about social media, to be honest, is that it's created for connection. Like, people wanna connect with people.

Tommy:

There's no getting there's no getting around the fact that it's personal branding really in some way unless you are, you know, you approach it in a different way. If you have your yourself on it, people do want to connect with that individual. And in my opinion, if it's too highly produced, there's a disconnect. You don't feel like that that person is speaking individually to you. You feel like they're putting on a show.

Tommy:

You feel like they're sort of putting on making this production for the audience. For the masses, and you're just one of them sort of as a voyeur looking in. What you really wanna do is try and connect with the individual on the other side of the phone. You know, the person who is actually watching your stuff, you need to talk to them. Stop talking to stop trying to create perfect content, talk to people, like hook them in, get them interested, get their attention, tell them a story, land it, tell them something that's like, real and connects with them emotionally in some way, whether it's motivating, inspiring, or if it's just educational and it makes them go, yeah.

Tommy:

Okay. Sweet. I'm feeling empowered to do the thing and fix the problem. You have to speak to the individual, and I think my content has always been pretty simple, and I fit I fit it into my life. I don't I don't necessarily always sit down and create or or allocate time to create.

Tommy:

A lot of it's when I'm running or, like, just using my Can I

Dean:

do birds?

Tommy:

Yeah. And just sort of documenting but also creating at the same time, I guess. And I think that works better because it and that's one of the reasons why the why don't you put no effort into work well because sometimes they're just real they're just a bit more real, and people connect to that and they're like, yeah, I like that. I'll follow that because I want more of it.

Dean:

I have always thought that your videos, like, are different. I'd look at them and, like, I can't quite tell what Tom is doing differently. But he's, like, he's hitting on something there. And one of the things you said to me before was that you've gotten a lot of feedback saying that it doesn't feel overproduced.

Tommy:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dean:

It's just you chatting. It's like you're it's like you're having a one way chat with me. I can't say it in the back, but you're saying it to me.

Tommy:

I think I I think when I watch other creators, the ones I really like are the ones that just feel they don't feel overproduced. They're the ones I really like. I just like this sort of a bit of a stitch. Like, they do a stitch or a sequence or whatever they call it, and then it's just sort of like them holding the camera and speaking to the camera in a captivating way, and you just feel like you're connecting with them as an individual or something.

Dean:

As the viewer, it feels like it's for you.

Tommy:

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like and it and it's just them with their phone.

Tommy:

Like, the reality is they're engaging with social media. That's all it is. They're engaging with engaging with social media with their phone like you are. You're on their level. They're not, like, getting up a camera produce and there's a time and place for high production, high quality production like this.

Tommy:

No, man. Sitting here with a sitting here with sick cameras and, like, a mic.

Dean:

Oh my god.

Tommy:

But with social media, it's it's that's why social media is, I think, is is unique in terms of content. You have to play to the platform's strengths, and the platform's strength with social media, with Instagram, is you gain access to a person, like, behind the scenes with their story, even with reels. Like, when you're doing, like, personal branding stuff and you wanna provide some value, you have to, like, connect more, I think.

Dean:

I just was thinking of as well one of the funniest videos on your feed. Obviously, the connection and all that stuff is good. Right? But one of them, you just completely slagged everyone else off. Right?

Dean:

Oh, no. Oh, no. No. I was in this. Right?

Dean:

So it's like a lot of TikTok girls. K? And they're just like one after the other, it was just different TikTok girls saying, come run a fight.

Tommy:

Come run with me. Come run with me.

Dean:

Come run with me. Come run with me. And then at the end, it's just you in your bathroom, face in the fucking mirror. And you're just like, nah.

Tommy:

You

Dean:

Do you reckon any of them ever saw that? I wonder if they

Tommy:

I think some of them did. I was only like, it's It's just so No. Obviously, obviously, some people I see people got pissed off a bit. I wonder. Yeah.

Tommy:

I think if I did that now, I would get it would people would get really annoyed. Yeah. Yeah. Because, like, I'm actually I'm not really that proud of that because, you know, as you produce, you sort of refine what your style is. You you know what is a bit immature and stuff.

Tommy:

And it is kinda funny, but I was sort of just taking the piss out of people who are like, come run with me. And it's like, I don't care about your run that that much. And I've I've never wanted to necessarily, like, do too much of that, unless it's something, like, inspiring or whatever. But, I mean, I no no shade of that kind of style of personal blogging, personal blogging and stuff, but it was just quite a funny thing because it seemed like everyone was saying come run with me, and I was just sick sick of the phrase come run with me. Stop saying come run with me at the start of your video.

Tommy:

And then I was just no. I'm good.

Dean:

Because I think it also kinda highlights the difference a little bit. You know, your your ones like we just said a minute ago, they're very for the person. Sure. They're for the individual watching. Whereas those ones, you know, super valuable and so forth, I'm sure, but, like, it's kinda just look at my run as opposed to here's how about your run.

Tommy:

I also, sometimes worry about

Dean:

some water. Well, keep going.

Tommy:

Sometimes I worry about, like, coming across a bit too seriously. Like, a lot of my a lot of my videos are sort of I'm giving advice or I'm saying you should do it this way or like that's what that's what my fear is that I'm I'm constantly telling people, you know, I'm giving advice, basically, aren't I? And and what that does is it sort of puts me in a position of, like, it it sort of might paint the picture that I've got it all sorted. I've got it all, like, together. I follow all of my own advice.

Tommy:

And that's well, it's firstly not the case. But it's also, like, it's quite an art form to strike a good balance between, like, comedy and value and advice. You know? I I wanna make sure people know that I'm not always serious. But maybe I'm overthinking that, but, I think maybe I think everyone knows.

Tommy:

Yeah.

Dean:

Maybe Anyone who follows you will, like, know you to a degree where it's, like, what it means, what it

Tommy:

means. Maybe. Yeah. Because because yeah. Exactly.

Tommy:

And, like, if anyone's gonna a lot lot of the time, I think, if anyone's getting offended

Dean:

by someone. Offended the other day when you put

Tommy:

up a fucking post about sleep and then you had parents giving out to you saying, well, we can't sleep.

Dean:

Yeah. I mean, that was literally it. I was

Tommy:

I had the newsletter wasn't even out yet, but all I was doing was a standard weekly, oh, I've just finished writing this newsletter. If you wanna sign up, it's about sleep. And I just said it's about sleep. And as I write these, I find it, like, I get passionate about the subject I'm writing about, and I've just got all fired up about how important sleep is. So, yeah, sign up for for the newsletter if you wanna read it.

Tommy:

It comes out tomorrow at 5 PM. And I got, like, within the next couple of hours, I was I was just chilling at home. Just checked my phone. I had, like, 8 messages or something of people saying, you know, easy for you to say you don't have kids, basically. And I was like, woah.

Tommy:

I mean Don't be

Dean:

coming at me. He's like,

Tommy:

I'm not the only person in the world that doesn't realize it's difficult to sleep with kids.

Dean:

It's too easy. Like kids, like, you're having a go at them.

Tommy:

Yeah. I was like, woah. I I recognize it's it's not always easy, but it doesn't it doesn't, like, mean that sleep's not actually valuable for recovery. All literally all I was talking about was how valuable sleep is for recovery. Anyway, I sort of responded to it by just saying, you know, I didn't say shut up.

Tommy:

I was just sort of saying, like, I I know it's not easy to sleep when you have kids. And the amount of people that came came in in support, you know, like, literally hundreds of messages from parents saying ignore these people. They just, you know, they're just sleep deprived and, like, want to make it about them or whatever. I didn't get I didn't get one more not that I could read all the messages, but all the messages I was clicking on and I could read, 100 of them, all of them were just saying, like, oh, these guys need to get over themselves. You know?

Tommy:

It's just a couple of bad apples. And that's usually what it is. You know? Ultimately, you usually hear from the ones that are strongly opinionated about disagreeing with whatever you're saying. You you don't really hear from the ones that, are in support until you make a thing of it, and then you just get 100 of people saying, I ignore them.

Tommy:

Ignore them.

Dean:

You've got a very, like, loyal following as well.

Tommy:

I think I feel like I do. I've got a bunch of legends.

Dean:

You know, like, the you might look at 1% video. You're slacking someone off having a laugh, like, whatever. But just look at the other 100 of, like, who you actually are.

Tommy:

Yeah. And that's

Dean:

what I think stands out. You know, people are very in on you.

Tommy:

I I love my following. Yeah.

Dean:

I genuinely love your following.

Tommy:

I feel like everyone is, it's Yeah. It's just Yeah. Legendary.

Dean:

I oddly have an affinity to it as well because, you know, I've kinda seen remember your name Broadway Market?

Tommy:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Dean:

We sat there in El Ganzo and that guy just came up and it was like a very heartfelt, dude, hey, I just want to let you know Yeah. I got back into running or I was in a dark place and I kinda got back into I think he's just something like that. He

Tommy:

was like a fit guy. Like, he was in good shape. He seemed like a sporty guy. He was like, yo, you were the reason I started running. I'm like, fucking outright fair.

Dean:

That's really sick. That

Tommy:

Yeah. And, like I was actually

Dean:

I remember being quite, like, touched when that that specific one

Tommy:

Yeah. I know. Stuck with me. Because you said it to me. People are just, like and then someone else came up.

Tommy:

Literally aren't in the same day or 2 minutes later. Someone else came up from there. Like, she was just like, keep doing what you're doing. Like a real genuine kind of appreciate it. I, I am always, like, so humbled and complimented when people feel like they can come up.

Tommy:

Yeah. If they see me, and they they actually know my content and they feel like they can come up to me. I'm like, man, they're so sick, man. Because they've spent

Dean:

like, I think about it in the way that they've, like, spent time with you, spent a lot of time. Like, they're give consume a lot of your shit, but, like, you'll in a in a way that's like know, the way a valve water can only go one way through it and can't go back the other way. It's kind of like this.

Tommy:

It's interesting. It's like when you if you like, anyone who you know who you don't know but you know through their content and stuff Sure. You really feel like you know them. Yeah. Like, because you've watched so many so you've watched so much of their stuff.

Tommy:

And especially with the style of stuff I did, you know, often sort of give personal updates and that sort of thing. You know, people kind of know my story in some way. This, for example, if people are listening to this, they know the story.

Dean:

I'd say most people have tuned out now.

Tommy:

Yeah. Probably. It's I mean, it's a mad thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy:

Social media is nuts because it's just, like, all you're doing is free for anyone

Tommy:

Yeah.

Tommy:

To just, like, put content out there and reach other people. And then all of a sudden, if you've got, like, any sort of following, people sort of following along and and constantly watching your stuff, if you do end up bumping into someone who knows you, it's a nuts thing. You feel this, like, yeah, it's this crazy experience, I think. And that and you and that's why I feel so passionate that you have to do you have to do something that actually you feel like like brings value and people understand the value of because then those interactions that you have, that connection you have with the people that, you know, the community that you're building is much more powerful. And I mean, I'm just becoming even more and more.

Tommy:

I'm becoming, like, really passionate about creating this community. Yeah. Because there's so many people I feel like are resonating with, you know, the approach I have or the style I have. And all it is is just my my own approach that I started to, you know, I started to find things that resonated with me, and it gave me this, like, extreme love for running. And I just want the the idea that other people could have that because of some of the stuff that I put out

Dean:

is more than nuts. You know, I feel that way about you. That's why I fucking show people your content. I'm immediately, like, fucking I'm like, I'm proud to kinda, like, be like, fucking look at Tommy smashing it. Look at the way he's doing this.

Dean:

Look what he's about, you know. And in the same way, you you say the same thing to me about what I'm trying to do here. And, like, I've even started to feel that on a smaller scale that that connection to what I'm doing. People, like, message me on LinkedIn and tap me up on Instagram and WhatsApp, and it's like, I really appreciate it.

Tommy:

I really do. You know when people say, like, oh, if I could don't if I just change one person's life, it's all worth it?

Dean:

Yeah.

Tommy:

That is so true. Like, that is genuinely so true. I got a message the other day from someone who and it kills me, I don't remember his name, but because of the whole sleep deprive parents debacle, I've got a lot of messages, but the ones that have come through in the last few days that I've that I've managed to read. There's one guy who messaged me saying that he was like, he's an ex drug addict, he was fully addicted to drugs, he didn't specify what, and, you know, he has basically recovered now, he's still on sort of antidepressants and all sorts and he's sorting himself out, but he was, you know, really in a dark place. And it's because of running that has, like, got him out of that, and specifically my content has helped him, like, really stay consistent with running.

Tommy:

And he's he was just, like, messaging me saying, like, you're a real inspiration. The work you're doing is genuine and real. And I was like, that is silly shit. Wow. And when I get messages like that, well, honestly, like, yeah, like my my chills right now.

Tommy:

Yeah. Like my hair stand on end. Like, I genuinely, when it gets hard, when I can't be bothered, or when it feels hard to or it feels scary to, you know, go full time with this stuff, all I need to do is just remember that there are, you know, the of the I just need to remember the few people or the many people, actually, but even just if I remember one message from one person that says, you've been instrumental in the change that I've made in myself, Huge. And, you know, I usually am maybe I'm because I'm British and, like, don't know how to take a compliment, but I usually am like, oh, it's all you, you know, because I really believe that ultimately you're you're the only person that can change you. But if I'm if I have any influence, if I can be of any assistance, if I can give any sort of assist to that, it's a, you know, it's a a life well lived, I think.

Tommy:

Yeah.

Dean:

It's just so beautiful that this thing that has now, like, shaped your whole life, and you've you've you've used this thing that you are so lit up about to move away from this thing that you're not. And you and me are just so like, an example of countless people who would like to to to say what you just said. Like, the the fact that you get to dedicate your life to something that you care about and that impacts people in that that level that level. That guy, like, that means so much to him that you can that that he can now do this and he attributes it to you.

Tommy:

Yeah. I mean, I I hope he realizes it's not because of me and it's because of him. For sure. Because it won't last till the day.

Dean:

That you get to do it.

Tommy:

It won't it won't last if you lean on someone else, but it

Dean:

it is all him. We It

Tommy:

is all him. I agree.

Dean:

I actually agree with that. You know? Yeah. We do all have to do it ourselves. We have to do it ourselves, but I think nobody gets anywhere alone.

Dean:

Yeah. We have people that inspire us, that move us, mentors, friends, whoever. You know, you do have to walk the walk yourself. You do. But it's so great that you have influenced that.

Dean:

Yeah.

Tommy:

It's amazing. It's awesome. And that to think that one video could have an effect on one person like that, that same video reaches many more people, and the idea that one person benefited like that means that maybe many other people benefited in a smaller way, but together That's not the people who didn't benefit. Hugely impactful, yeah, Which should be a really empower I think that should be, like, a really empowering message for other people. If you can figure out something that the world needs that you're good at and that you love doing, if you can just figure that out, you're icky guy, it there's so much value for yourself and for others to be found there, and and this is what I was kinda talking about at the beginning, like, there are so many people in offices who are just insanely capable, but I just think that their attention is in the wrong direction, it's in the wrong thing.

Tommy:

And if they were to figure out what that icky guy was, which takes a long time, takes a lot of work, takes a lot of action, but if they were to do that, if they were to figure out what it was, I believe that they would be of more value. They would have more positive effect on the world if they really found the thing that the world needs, they're good at, they can get paid for. That's that's really what they should be doing. And I've just I fundamentally believe we're all, you know, we're all so unique. We all have our unique attributes and skills and characteristics.

Tommy:

Why not let all of the all of those skills and characteristics and attributes blossom? Because, you know, some of them are just sort of left, you know, untreated and and you never really see the full impact of that person. So it's powerful stuff, man. I feel like, yeah, it's on one hand, it's a privilege to be able to go and find your passion and do that, but on the other hand it's a duty. Everyone should really be trying to find where they're most valuable.

Dean:

I think the way you've done it with content is one of the like, it's so accessible. Anyone can just pick up the phone. It's kinda hard, though. Right? I mean, I do appreciate it.

Dean:

It's social media is kind of a tricky one psychologically. Right? I mean, I've, you know, you've it's actually you've been, like, such a sort of shoulder to lean on when I've been kind of starting on this. I'm like, what are we

Tommy:

doing here?

Dean:

Blah blah

Tommy:

blah blah. And you're like,

Dean:

get out your own head. I'm like, yeah. Fair enough.

Tommy:

Stop making it about you, babe. Yeah.

Dean:

Stop making it about you. It's the best line ever. Works any anytime. But what like, if if you were to give just one piece of advice for somebody to start posting content on social media, just one thing that would help them, what would it be?

Tommy:

Ship. I always say this. Just ship the just ship the thing. Like, you it's gonna be shit when you start. You are gonna suck at social media when you start.

Tommy:

You could be someone who's really incredible at social media when you start, I mean, lucky you, but everyone has a long way to go from the moment they start social media to the moment they produce good content that resonates with people and reaches people. Even if you start making good content from the get go, it just probably won't go that far unless it has virality, you know, in its in its sort of formula. Like, unless it's destined to be a viral video, it's not gonna it's not gonna bring you followers. And even still, your first few your first few posts, if you get if you go viral with your first post, let's say you get 5,000,000 views on your first post, and you have no other posts, who's gonna follow you? Probably no one.

Tommy:

Like, well, some will because they'll follow from the video. But when people go on your page and they see you've done nothing else, it's unlikely they're gonna believe in in the rest of your content. It's unlikely they're gonna believe that you're gonna consistently post and provide value. When people follow, they are following for the consistent delivery of content. They wanna consume more of what you're providing.

Tommy:

So if you don't have a massive portfolio of valuable content, then you're unlikely to get follows. You're less likely at least to get follows. So ship the thing. Like, for for the first the first reason of just posting is to get content on your grid. Just start getting a lot of content out there.

Tommy:

The second reason is when you post, you learn. You know? And actually posting, actually putting that out there to public is the best way to put yourself under the pressure of scrutiny for each post, which is a good thing because it makes you try and make good content in some way. So you gotta balance the ship it, get it out there, doesn't matter all that much, with an actual care for how good it is. And I think that just the fact that it's going out there to the public will will basically demand care from you of that content because it's it's going out there.

Tommy:

You're putting it out there. If you were to, let's say you were doing a blog, but you never actually made it public, it's a journal. Yep. So you don't care about how good you're writing, how well you're structuring it, how captivating it is, what the CTA is at the end. You don't care about anything because you're just doing it for yourself.

Tommy:

As soon as you're you're actually putting it out there, you're putting content out to the people, and it's being scrutinized and judged by others, then the scrutiny and judgment that you're putting on it is also of benefit. So make sure you are actually putting it out there and posting it. So very well-being the best editor in the world if you don't make any videos, if you don't actually post any videos. It's it's better if you're posting it, you're doing it, you're you're producing. So I think like my I think that my single best advice I can give to anyone is to just post.

Tommy:

And the third reason is that you just you start learning about what does well, you look at the data, you start experimenting, you get playful with different types of content, and then eventually you might find your thing, your format, either thing that just like you might have like a style of post that just does really well for a bit, and then all of your posts just sort of lock onto that style. There are plenty of creators out there who are known for a certain style of content. My style, arguably, is me running with the camera, you know, running along with with my phone and just speaking to the camera. Very simple. Obviously, it's been done before many a times, but there's there's all sorts of details around how I make one of those that kinda make it my style.

Tommy:

People know me for that. There's all sorts of creators out there who are known for their stitches. You know, you've got, like, a guy called Joey Swole in the fitness space. He sort of basically calls he calls out, like, fitness influences or people creating videos in the gym a lot of the time. Calls them out for being kind of, like, entitled and complaining about people getting into their frame and stuff like that.

Tommy:

And he's got a huge following, but people know him for that. You know, they know him for that style. You gotta experiment. You gotta ship. You gotta put it out there.

Tommy:

Experiment. And maybe you'll find a style. But it all starts by actually pressing post.

Dean:

And I I would recommend to the person who's listening to do what I did in preparation for this very podcast, to go back, scroll all the way

Tommy:

Do do do

Dean:

it. To the bottom to the bottom of Tommy Lewis' page and tell me you can't be somewhat inspired. And maybe I'm biased because I know you, but to see you go from, like I said earlier, a couple thousand, couple thousand, couple thousand, lower again, or big one, down again, you know, that journey and just the consistency.

Tommy:

Yeah.

Tommy:

I mean It's

Dean:

what it takes.

Tommy:

Yeah. It's what it takes, man. And somebody would, you know I'm really grateful for the reception it's got. I I feel like it's been a short period of time. It's only, you know, a few years of doing it.

Tommy:

I've obviously tried really hard to learn as much as I possibly can about the the medium that is social media, but, and I've got my theories that many would probably disagree with in terms of what does well and why it does well. But, but, yeah, like and I and I think I've I've had a a crazy growth, especially in the last year. I'm very grateful for that. But it is consistency, and, like, it might take 10 years. Yeah.

Tommy:

It might take 20 years of whatever you're doing before you find that success, but, man, you won't regret starting. Like, if you get to 20 years time, you finally make it to where you, you know, wanna be or you finally find satisfaction in where you're at, it took 20 years, whatever. But, like, well done for getting there and starting. Just work on it.

Dean:

Yeah. Just work man, like, with my journey to here, I didn't I mean, right now, I'm loving this. I'm passionate about it. I care about it. It's something that I feel, like you said earlier, is, like, connecting with the right people as well.

Dean:

But it wasn't smooth for me. Really, really weird journey to get here. Set up a business and fucking property.

Tommy:

Mhmm.

Dean:

You know, I never saw myself doing that. I kinda you never know where things are gonna turn out as long as you're kinda taking a step. You never know. You did not plan for this to be what it is. You were just doing it.

Tommy:

No. Not at all. And it's funny because, you know, I've been trying to produce putting out, like, social media content and trying to, you know, build leverage in the space that I wanna work in, and it has always been an intention to work in the space, whatever that looks like. I don't know what it looks like, but whatever it looks like. And the whole idea is to just try and help people as much as possible so they would appreciate, you know, what I'm producing, build leverage, and then you've got like a captivated audience, right?

Tommy:

And the moment of monetization that everyone talks about, it's not just like flicking a switch. Like, when you have if you suddenly get like a quote unquote big following, you can't just monetize that without risking ruining that what you've built. And I've been really, like, really, really careful throughout my time kind of as my audience has grown, as I've produced content. I've been really careful and made some mistakes along the way, but to only partner with brands and do it rarely where I really care about the brand or, like, I feel like I can give an authentic kind of video or, you know, whatever. There have been times where I've I've kind of partnered with a brand or started doing something early on that didn't go too well.

Tommy:

You're you're smirking because you know the stories. But I've been really adamant to to really only do that very rarely and only for products that I genuinely use, I pay for, I I like. And I think, like, what I was really getting out there is that there's many different ways that I've thought about monetizing or, like, entering the space and actually making money in a, like, sort of legitimate and honest way. It could have been coaching. It could have been at one point, I had an idea for, like, a a a hat business.

Tommy:

You know? Might still happen. I don't know. But, like, you know, I'm trying to figure out a way to, you know, utilize the leverage I've built, but not just, like, flog products to my audience and wash out all of the sort of brand identity. And I think there's a delicate way of doing it.

Dean:

Yeah. You played it quite well, actually. Like, it was very you you yeah. You didn't come out guns blazing. You're just like, hey.

Dean:

Look. And and you actually the way you speak about brands on your stories or in a video is very, hey, look, you know, they're good for these reasons or I might not like this about them. And I'm like, okay, that's quite refreshing to just see somebody who's not saying, oh, my god. Check this out. Like, buy this, and make sure to use my code.

Tommy:

Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, firstly, I actually do believe in what I'm saying when I when I sort of partner with a brand. I genuinely like their products.

Dean:

For sure.

Tommy:

But also secondly, like, I'm I have another pretty fundamental message as part of my kind of ethos that you don't need all this stuff. So you don't need, like, a crazy fancy watch. You don't need, like, all of this fancy stuff. It's it's a simple sport, and you shouldn't be kinda too sold into. So I don't wanna contribute too much to trying to, promote stuff that you need, and this is the best thing that's ever happened to me.

Tommy:

But for those who are in the market for spending some money on their health and a hobby that they, you know, absolutely love, then, you know, I wanna point them in the right direction to brands I actually really love, and every runner loves a bit of gear. Like, I you know, the right kind of gear.

Dean:

Not every

Tommy:

runner loves that kind of gear. Yeah. But everyone loves, you know, all of the sort of different brands and all that as they get really into that, and so do I. You know? So yeah.

Tommy:

I think, like, I wanna I wanna definitely make sure that it's clear that I actually love the brands that I'm associating myself with and also promoting through my brand. But I'm in the business of content. I'm in the business of reach, and that's what the brands care about. But there's also a real kind of authentic connection you can have with brands that, that I really wanna make sure I tap into.

Dean:

I think you do a great job with it, honestly. The the financial segue, like, that's that's the big I I the more and more I speak to people about, hey, why don't you wanna try or what? What's kinda stopping you? It's always, like, 95% of the time is, don't know how I'm gonna be doing for money alongside when I do that, you know. Am am I gonna be short, you know.

Dean:

It's that kind of fear of unknown muddled in with, like, financial segue and how do I manage this. And it just causes this paralysis that, like, we I think we said this before we came on. It's like the lack of any sort of action is what ensues from there. Just stagnation. Nothing.

Dean:

Ideas being just kinda swept aside, and it's it's kinda it's it's the killer of all dreams in this world.

Tommy:

It's the killer of all economies as well, uncertainty. I think, like, at any time you're uncertain, it can cause, like you say, inaction and really you're not doing anything, then time passes and and you, you know, all of a sudden, everything's uncontrollable. You don't have the money. You you know? I I would say if I were to give anyone like any advice on when to step away, like if if money is an issue, you can make it work, like, you know, you can be back against the wall and make it work, You know?

Tommy:

That's happened to you. It's happened to people you've had on this podcast. You can be back against the wall and make it work. I've been back against the wall and made it work in a way that I didn't want to make it work. Like, I had to jump back into work back into 9 to 5.

Dean:

Great example.

Tommy:

You still you you know, at the end of the day, you know, into some capacity, you you know, you will be fine or you can figure out how to be fine if you back yourself. And I was ultimately fine. Here I am today. But it wasn't a time that I would recommend it wasn't an experience I'd recommend to anyone. You know?

Tommy:

Like, yeah, I learned a lot through it, but I, you know, really was scraping the barrel there for for a long time. And I would say that most importantly, when you don't have money or when the money is like a real anxiety and worry for you when you're stepping away and trying to do something full time, it can it can really sort of impact your emotional state and, the state of mind from which you approach your work, and then you are gonna be, I believe, less optimistic, less productive. You know, you're gonna be operating with fear rather than, you know, love and passion and excitement. And I I feel like that's not a good place to be. I think at the very least, you have to have a very clear vision of how that money is gonna come in on top of having a bit of a runway.

Tommy:

And I'm fortunate enough now to have a bit of a runway and have a very clear idea and some money that's already come in, but also a clear idea of how more money is gonna come in, how I'm gonna grow that. And, you know, I'm I'm I really feel lucky because I'm approaching it without too much fear. Gently. Yeah. My boss well, one of my bosses yesterday sort of came, and instead of saying, oh, I heard the news commiserations.

Tommy:

What no. I heard the news. It's it's sad to see you go or whatever, which she did say. Her first word was congratulations Wow. Which was just, like, a really powerful thing.

Tommy:

You know? You know, you're working amongst the right people and they really care about you in that sense. Like, she knew what I was doing. She told she said congratulations. And, you know, I think ultimately when and she said, like, are you scared?

Tommy:

And I said, no. Like, I'm actually not. I'm not scared. And when I did it before and I tried it before, I was pretty scared. Didn't know what I was doing.

Tommy:

Clueless. Yeah. I was taking action. I was trying to make it work, but, you know, it didn't really sort of pan out the way I thought it would. This time, I'm going in without as much fear.

Tommy:

I've got, like, this anticipation and a bit of excitement and a bit of, like, oh, you know, gotta take this seriously. I'm just sort of leaving now, but I'm not I'm not as fearful of what's to come because I think mostly because of the support that I'm receiving, which is a hugely powerful thing if you can get that. But also financially, I'm not, like, up against the wall, so that that matters, I

Dean:

think. What I was thinking, as you said that was the fact that they said congratulations highlights that if given the chance to do something that lights them up, that they could segue financially, they would do it in a heartbeat. Otherwise, you wouldn't say congratulations, which is sad Yeah. That people a lot of people in that position won't. Let's face it.

Dean:

A lot of them won't get to do that. Most of them won't, probably. Those there there may be some a select few who do and try and do what you've just outlined, have a similar journey or somewhat different, but most won't.

Tommy:

Most definitely won't. Yeah. I think, like, there's a mix of, you know, some people are probably like congratulations because they see I I can see you're so much passionate, so much more passionate about that than than you are about this, but there's obviously the other side of it which is very true that is there's a bit of envy, you know, there's a bit of, there's a bit of sort of jealousy of people that able are able to kind of turn their passion into a profession, you know, everyone sort of wants to do that. And, yeah, I think just a lot of people don't don't even do the groundwork of finding what they're passionate about before they even start producing or providing value in that space, or fig or figuring out how they can provide value in that space. They don't even think about what they're really truly passionate about outside of their career.

Tommy:

A lot of people, I know a lot of people who go through school, go through university, specifically training and educating for a for a specific career, and then they go into that career and then, you know, the classic is probably, you know, a legal career. No offense to lawyers, but a lot of you do hate it. And a lot of them sort of find themselves in this role, and they're like, I don't really like it. You know, my brother's a lawyer. I think he loves it.

Tommy:

So, there are plenty of people who do very well. Yeah. I'll tell you. I think there's plenty of people who do very well in their career. And, but I I swear I hear so many stories of creative people who end up in the in the sort of tech in yeah.

Tommy:

Or they end up just somewhere they're not supposed to be, and then they they sort of just go, do you know what? I'm doing well at this. It, you know, provides well or but they do sort of look back. I wish I did just, you know, spend a bit of my a bit more time kind of on that, or I wish I did just pursue that a little bit more. What if what if that could you know, what if?

Tommy:

And that's the scariest. It's the scariest We

Dean:

know, man. We all know this. We know it. And what's sad is, like, if you compare those 2 up against each other. Right?

Dean:

Like, 30, 40 years of staying there versus the 2 to 3 to 4, maybe 5 or whatever to get away and to actually do what you are now doing, which is what you love and helping people. What? Like, of course, you're gonna pick that one. But so many people will pick the the former, the long, slow, dreary path to residual regret or maybe really maybe really confronting regret.

Tommy:

Yeah. I think the scariest but also most captivating question to ask, depending on when you're asking it, is what if? Like, you could ask yourself now, what if I went and did that thing? And you got the opportunity to go and do that thing, and then you go and do it, or you could not do it and ask yourself in 20 years time, what if I just did that? You know, what if I had put more time into that?

Tommy:

What if I had really worked hard at producing within that space? And then you've got the fear of regret, which I mean, so many people surely would resonate with that. Like, there's so much I I'm I'm fearful of regretting the next 30 years of my life. I don't wanna ask the question what if about something that never happened.

Dean:

That's a big driver for me. And when you were saying about the people in the office who I actually know, it's it's the people who are managers. Mhmm. The people who are maybe in senior management. Like, that's they're almost, like, so far away whereas I see people who are maybe, like, you and I, like, late twenties, early thirties kinda in there.

Dean:

There's kinda more of a chance there, but it's, like, it's even still hard at that point.

Tommy:

Yeah. And there's I mean, I think one of the biggest one of the biggest problems one thing I feel very fortunate about is, is my impatience. Yeah. Yeah. Fucking hell snap.

Tommy:

Because I because I I just can't stand, like, I can't stand the idea of doing something I don't like I don't like doing every single day. Like, the I I I'm really just I can't, can't do it. Bothers me. Yeah.

Tommy:

Like, I can't I just

Tommy:

can't sit here and sell software all my life. You know? Whereas some people, they don't get to a point

Tommy:

where they're frustrated enough.

Tommy:

You know? They're not they're not really, like, frustrated. It's it's okay. Like, it's it's you know, I don't really mind it. I kinda like sales.

Tommy:

I like chatting about, you know, this and that.

Dean:

That's the thing. It's You

Tommy:

do it. Fine.

Dean:

It's good.

Tommy:

You know, and I think we will I think there's employees, people who are in, employment, if they're happy, then they're a necessary part of all of this. You know? Like, you talk about you can't promote starting businesses and employing people, and also in the same breath promote getting out of any 9 to 5 just because it's a 9 to 5 or getting out of the job just because it's a job. If you love what you do, then that's right. You know, if you if you're very good and very passionate about what you do, mate, you've you've done it.

Tommy:

You've done it. Well done. Well done. But the fact is there are a lot of people who don't like what they do and aren't that good at it, and or or maybe okay at it because there's some soft skills, and they've been doing it for a while, but it's not their thing and they feel uncomfortable and they struggle to admit to themselves that they could, you know, feel uncomfortable. And they're afraid of what comes.

Tommy:

Yes. Exactly. And, you know, the truth is they don't wanna they don't wanna sort of face up to the fact that, you know, the last decade has been spent doing something they don't wanna do. But they should also feel empowered by the fact that what they've been doing for the last decade or whatever they've been doing that they don't like has tremendous amount of value in their life in terms of business skills or whatever other kind of skills and experience. I can't emphasize enough how much b to b sales has helped me in how I understand business and how I understand a sale, you know, partnerships.

Tommy:

I can't emphasize enough how my early stage business experiences helped me understand how to build businesses and go, you know, go to market strategy and all of the stuff that is around business strategy and actually, you know, what it means to build a a business model that makes sense. You know, all of that stuff, I sure could have maybe learned as an entrepreneur or whatever, messy. But I've happened to learn it in a way that's very structured and, well, for the most part, structured in the last 8 years. And I've I've been I'm super grateful for all the connections, all the people, all of the learnings, all of the corporate jargon. I'm I'm super grateful for everything I've learned.

Tommy:

And I think people need to recognize that, you know, you don't necessarily have to look back on the last 2 decades and say, oh, what a waste. You can look back and say, right. Got that. But I'm gonna be honest with myself now. I'm I'm about a lot more and I need to get out

Dean:

of this. I agree. You know, you got it. We it's understandable why most people get into it. You're 18.

Dean:

You're 21. You kinda roll into it. And you're like, alright. Well, boom. Fast forward.

Dean:

It's now I'm 28. Yeah. It's it's understandable, but it does stand to you. And I've I've been Jesus. Like, without the business to business skills, I would not have accelerated my own business as nearly as much as I did.

Dean:

And I think another key thing as well is, like, I would not have stayed doing that if I wasn't working with the people I was working with. Fucking love the people. Like, this is honestly, I think of a lot of them when I am whilst on this kind of mission that I'm on is, like, I actually think of individual people that I used to work with. Bosses, like managers, people who are CEOs, and I just think, fuck. I'd love for this to reach them.

Dean:

What I what I'm trying to do here to reach those individual people that I know maybe not quite as burningly as I had it, but do feel what we're talking about. Mhmm. I would love that.

Tommy:

Yeah. Yeah. And they do, man. Like, I wouldn't name names, but someone very recently said to me that they were pretty jealous of when I was handing them a notice. Went for a walk with them.

Tommy:

Mhmm.

Tommy:

It

Tommy:

was someone that I needed to tell Sure. In the business. And he was like, you know, if if if they weren't paying me, you know, I wouldn't be doing it. And that's the reality, and you've asked this question even on this podcast before, if they weren't paying you, would you do it? No, of course I wouldn't do it.

Tommy:

The only reason I'm doing it is because I'm getting paid. Well, I would do this if I wasn't getting paid, and I wanna and and I wanna do it full time. You need to get paid in order to do something full time. Me too. So I'm gonna figure out how to get paid through it.

Tommy:

Yeah. But I would do this, you know? And I think when you find something that really is more it's so much more than the money you can make from it, I mean, there's the magic, I think.

Dean:

I'm the same with this.

Tommy:

Yeah.

Dean:

I want this to be the thing I do all the time. I love it. Yeah. And going back to, like, time, I think there's a quote. Right?

Dean:

It's this thing is just burning in my mind, man. You've probably heard it as well, but we have 2 lives, and the second begins when we realize we only have 1.

Tommy:

Yeah. I've heard that one. It's good. Yeah. I do I mean, I who knows, man?

Tommy:

There might be another there might be another life, but I'm not sure anyone

Dean:

can be convinced

Tommy:

of that. I'm not sure anyone can be convinced that there is I mean, people can be convinced of it, but, I personally don't know, so I'm gonna go with what I do know and that is I'm here now in this life and feel like I got one shot, and I think that's liberating knowing that this could be the last time, you know, knowing that everything you do could be the last time you do it, that's a liberating thing, it's an empowering thing, and I think that's sometimes an important perspective. I what's interesting about that actually is that, obviously, I quit my job this week, handed them my notes this week. Knew I was gonna do it before I did it, obviously. It wasn't an accident.

Tommy:

But when you do it, then all of a sudden and I have had these thoughts recently as well, like, oh, this will this will be over soon. I appreciate this. But I've had this overwhelming feeling of gratitude for the company I've been working for for the last 2 years. You know, even just, like, looking around at the people I've been working with, like, real genuine legends at that place.

Dean:

For sure.

Tommy:

And I have felt a bit, like, melancholic a little bit, sort of, like, man, I've felt I've have in some ways, sometimes felt a bit flat because it's almost like, oh, man. I wish I did love this. You know? In some way, it's like, if I really loved this stuff, man, what a what an existence. Get to come into work and do what you love and get, you know, all the benefits you get was insane.

Tommy:

But Great points. I don't love it. You know? And and every day, I dread, really dread fundamental parts of what it means to have this role and do this role well. I I dread it, I hate it, and it's a bit sad.

Tommy:

But the reality is thanks for everything, but, you know, all good things come to an end and, it's come to an end, but it has allowed me to have that feeling of, like, you know, it's it's over now, it's and this will be the last time this will be the last time I leave this office, and you feel, like, very grateful for it, you know. Yeah.

Dean:

The people is I I felt that as well when I left. And I remember, like well, I mean, I've left a few jobs in my time, you know. You have to leave job at every point you leave it for whatever reason. But every time I'd always look back and be like, alright, you know, hope you guys are doing well. Yeah.

Dean:

Like, you know, I I don't I don't it's just the work.

Tommy:

Well, that was it. Yeah. I love hanging out with them.

Dean:

Yeah. I just didn't I couldn't I I couldn't imagine a world where I was 60 or 70 and I just didn't change anything about this and I kinda just kept doing it. Because for me, even even at 23 I had my first sales job at 23. I knew even then when I was kinda allured by these big well, I mean, relatively big paychecks at the time, even then I knew this isn't right. Something's not I'm not where I should be.

Dean:

I knew. Yeah. I knew then.

Tommy:

Yeah. I think you should you should tune into how you feel. If you if if someone feels like they're not in the right place, they're just like, this just isn't me. Like, someone who and they really is passionate excuse me. Someone who's, like, really passionate about the outdoors or like whatever or fitness or something, they're just sort of stuck behind a desk.

Tommy:

Some people make that work, they have great careers behind a desk, earn a load of money, and also like adventure in their own time, but some people just feel, you know, just feel uncomfortable in the situation that they're in. Even in even even conceptually, sometimes I feel myself sort of sat there at the desk just like, what are we doing? What are we doing? We're all just tapping away, getting slick Just clicking clicking. Clicking tapping tapping, getting stressed about what someone else has sent to you.

Tommy:

They didn't even know you.

Tommy:

They didn't even know what you

Tommy:

look like. Someone on the other side of an email doesn't know what you look like from procurement, and they're just like having a go, and you're like, woah. And you get all stressed. And I'm just sometimes like, what are we doing? I'm getting so stressed about this.

Tommy:

Like, none of it matters. That's a bit of a side note, but I I do I do some you know, I'm I can find it difficult to, like, bring my full non sarcastic self to work when I'm just like

Tommy:

Yeah.

Tommy:

Are you kidding me?

Dean:

And you're at a meeting and there's just some guy in the US just talking about synergy on some Zoom call with a 1,000 other people, and you're like, what? Dude, sometimes

Tommy:

sometimes when I hear, like, corporate jargon, it'll be put in it put in, like, a PowerPoint slide, and I think it's a parody.

Dean:

I think it's like Someone's taking the piss

Tommy:

out of here.

Tommy:

You're tensing the piss.

Tommy:

It's always

Tommy:

gonna work. Around the room, and everyone's, like, nodding. Yes.

Dean:

I'm pissed off. Agreed.

Tommy:

You're joking. They're talking about, like Where's the hidden camera? Synergizing inconsistencies in the culture. I don't know what else, but, like I know. Yeah.

Tommy:

Sometimes I just think we're all having a laugh here.

Dean:

Truly, most people in there are thinking the same thing.

Tommy:

I think I don't know if people because I I think there was one recently. Right? I can't remember what I sent you a voice note about it. I sent I came out of it. I needed some air from

Dean:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I do remember.

Tommy:

I needed some air from the corporate bullshit, and it was, like, just one presentation. And she was kinda new, and she was saying what she what her role is about and what she what her plans are, and ex consultant. So you know what I mean? She's great at, like, a bullshit slide deck. Gets paid for your bum.

Tommy:

Yeah. I used to get paid some serious whack for consulting and putting slide decks together. Anyway, there's my there's my cynical self coming out. But the first line was just like it was like a parody of it was just how much corporate jargon can I put in this? And I was just like, you're having enough.

Tommy:

And I turned to, like, the person next to me, and I was like, are you joking? You know? And he sort of was like, oh, yeah. I was like, I don't think anyone really gets, like, as sort of riled up about just I wanna take him by the shoulders and be, like, crack out of it. Dude.

Tommy:

Snap out of it. We we be yourself. Like, you don't have to say those words. It doesn't mean what do you mean?

Dean:

What do you say?

Tommy:

What are you on about? I was, like, there was I was recently on, like, a call someone was doing a report on, like, a great, you know, sale that they did, out in the states and they're talking about and we we brought in some external collaborators and cross functional collaborators. I was like,

Dean:

shut up. The economic buyer in this one was a real stickler.

Tommy:

What are you talking about? And you're like even just, like, saying external collaborators and cross functional I know. Like, what are you talking about? Who is that? And sometimes I'm just like,

Dean:

I can't even Would you, like, talk

Tommy:

to me like I'm in the pub, and you're talk like, talk to me about how you close the deal. Who'd you bring in? Like, legitimately, who'd you bring in? Oh, it's because I went for a beer with him, and he was nice, and he turns out he would actually had some leverage. Cool.

Tommy:

I don't know. I just get a bit like I know.

Dean:

I know. Because we all know as well. We're we're all kinda just playing like what is this?

Tommy:

I know. Yeah. We're spending

Dean:

so much time in here doing this and we all kinda know it's bollocks. We're all

Tommy:

just

Dean:

I don't know, man. But I think your journey anyway just to kinda go back to this and stop slagging the corporate world. I think your journey shows like, literally, you can go and look at your journey. Let's go and scroll back. I said it earlier.

Dean:

Go back and scroll on Tommy's videos. I'll probably do it again because I was genuinely inspired. Because I'm kinda I feel like I'm at the the bottom of that rung, let's say, you know, metaphorically.

Tommy:

And I

Dean:

was like, yes. This is doable. Here's a guy who's shown me in real time that I've found that he's found his thing that lights him up, that matters to the world, that he would do for free, that he wants to keep doing, that he can get paid for, and that is a net positive to the world. What a beautiful thing. Mhmm.

Dean:

And you found it. And imagine, like, you know, remember earlier we're saying 90% of the world or 90% of the UK is disengaged at their job. Imagine that was flipped on its head, and everyone was living a life of purpose and impact in a way that you are having the impact you are. Imagine everyone got to do that. Mad.

Dean:

Hey there. Jumping in really quickly. Tommy and I have about 7 or 8 minutes or so left in the interview. If you've made it this far, that probably means it's been somewhat of a interesting interview, or perhaps you've maybe left your phone playing and you've forgotten about us. But either way, it's great that you've made it this far.

Dean:

What I would like you to walk away from this with is the belief that you can truly lean into something that you care about right now, today. Start taking steps and you've seen now what's happened with Tommy. You've seen how much he's grown over the past few years doing this and what it's meant for him, how different his life is. And I would love for you to start taking one step. Just one step that you can take today to do that.

Dean:

Besides that, I really appreciate you sticking around till the end. If you would like to support the show, you can do so by subscribing, you can do so by rating if you are listening on Spotify, That really does help give the show a little push and hopefully we can reach more people. So this message of leaning into work that matters to you can reach more people. But that's enough of me, I'm gonna send you back into the last few minutes of the interview here with Tommy where we have a couple of more funny interactions and close things off really nicely. Thank you very much for checking out this episode, and I hope to see you at the next one.

Tommy:

Wouldn't the world be a better place if we all managed to find or if a lot more of us managed to find that? I feel I I mean, I feel like it would have I feel like it would have such a positive effect on the world, like, I don't know, I don't wanna make big claims, but I just think there's so much resentment built up by doing what you hate doing for 50 hours of a week. I feel like there's so much damage that can be done in your own life if you ultimately hate what you do and you really don't know why you're doing it, like, all sorts can happen. You have like, it's important, it is important to try and find your thing, the thing that lights you up, the thing you wanna talk about, the thing that energizes you, like, it is important to find those things, and

Tommy:

do you

Tommy:

know what? It's good stuff, man.

Dean:

Even if you don't post about it, or even if you don't make money off it.

Tommy:

Exactly. Just do it. Do it. Not everyone wants to not everyone wants to, make their passion a profession. It's actually risky.

Tommy:

There's real risk in making your passion a profession. If you turn it into the money making thing, there is real genuine risk of ruining what it was, and everyone needs to be cognizant of that. You know, if you love it for genuinely what it is, you need to retain what you love about it when you make it a profession. Because, like, who knows, in a few months time when all I'm doing is trying to, you know, make this business work and it's all about running and then I just don't allow myself any time to actually enjoy my own running, that's gonna be a really damaging thing. So, it's really important to be cognizant of the fact that turning your passion into a profession could ruin the passion.

Tommy:

So it's not necessarily for everyone, you don't have to find, you know, not one thing. But I do think it's important to love what you do, and whether that's finding a way to enjoy what you're currently doing, whether it's finding out what you're passionate about and going into that, you know, you might be passionate about something that is within your career, like you might be passionate about the role you have, you know, you could be a product designer and you just love that role. I'm using that specifically because at one time I thought I wanted to be, you know, I actually thought I'd wanted to be a product manager, so that would be really interesting. You there are people out there, you you know, you could be a a product manager and you're like, this is what I love doing, and you love the product, and you you love seeing the project through. That's that's great.

Tommy:

But I think, yeah, the world 100% of the world would be a better place if, like, more people love or hate it. I mean, yeah, sure.

Dean:

Staying on that that person who is the product designer. They've you know, probably a lot of people who are listening to this just for you, they follow you and they probably love what they do. And not everyone is compelled, for the pits of their soul to leave the corporate world. Right? To to those people, like, that's I I I envy them in a way.

Dean:

Like, that's like I'd I'd prefer if I kinda actually just enjoy doing what I'm saying. I didn't. Right? We've talked about that. But a lot of people who have tuned in to listen to you will want to change, and I think that's a key difference.

Dean:

I was talking to Izzy about this last night. I was like, with this with this endeavor I'm on, this pursuit, this content that I that I make, I wanted to reach the person who wants to change. You know? A lot of people probably don't like their job, but I wanna reach the people who don't like their job and who wanna do something about it, you know, who wanna change and I wanna focus on them for a sec. Like, what would you say to to that person who does wanna change?

Tommy:

That feeling of desperation that you have right now, being lost, not knowing what the next move is, not knowing what your passion is, not knowing where to go, that feeling is necessary. Like, hook onto that feeling of discomfort, of of frustration, of feeling lost, and take action on it. Because if you take action, if you start doing more, if you start being curious, if you start, like investigating, you know, go to webinars, go to environments you've never been in, like meet people, message people on Linkedin, go and find out more about, you know, what's out there and what you could be interested in. Be curious. Use that desperation to start doing crazy things, start producing content, whether it's, you know, a newsletter or whether it's a blog or it's, you know, content without your face on social media or like it's a group on Facebook, whatever it is, start producing within a space, start finding your thing, and you just gotta, like, really use that sort of desperation to to take action.

Tommy:

I think, like, if you are feeling desperate, use that and be just sort of be grateful for the fact that at least you're tuned into the fact that you're uncomfortable with where you're at because a lot of people just coast with something they're not happy with and then complain 30 years down the line that they never found what they were into. Use use what you You've

Dean:

got the fucking fire that's

Tommy:

burning up. Man. You've got this sweet Sweet. You're

Dean:

lost. Step 1.

Tommy:

You're lost. You have no idea what you're doing. Sweet. Everything is possible now, you know, because you you because everything is confused. You know, you're desperate for something.

Tommy:

Go investigate. Go find the thing. Be curious. Like when you start actually looking, you realize how many options are out there. Like, you can do literally anything you wanna do, it can be in any space, and there are thousands and thousands of industries out there, you you just don't know what you want, you know, you just don't know what it's gonna end up being.

Tommy:

It's just, you know, start producing, stop planning, stop worrying too much about where you're gonna end up, and start just, like, finding passion for things now. It's a it's a it's a hard place to be, but it's a necessary place to be.

Dean:

That's a beautiful way to put it, by the way. Like, you've you've got that, like, that insatiable kinda feeling that are, like, you just know something's wrong. Something's not where it should be. And it's a blessing because that means you can do something about it, you know, which is amazing. Yeah.

Dean:

You and and as well, right, we're gonna stay on that for a sec. You if you're ever lacking in inspiration along the way, go back and look at Tommy's face. I swear to god, last night when I was looking at that, you know, because I'm somewhere along that way, I'm like, fuck yes. Like, the guy did it. He's stuck at the thing.

Dean:

He's doing his thing. He's doing the thing that he loves. It's amazing. Wanna ask though, right, what is sort of an consistent or recurring mental battle that you've had to wrestle with?

Tommy:

A recurring mental battle. Yeah. Or, like, blocker that you've had to

Dean:

face along the way, if any.

Tommy:

Like, since posting or

Dean:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because social media fucks a lot of people up. Right?

Dean:

It's like it can be a bit Yeah. Daunting to do, and some people might not know what they're getting themselves in for. What have you struggled with?

Tommy:

I mean, I've always naturally struggled with, like the judgment of others. At the end of the day, like, you're putting yourself out there, you're judging and scrutinizing your own work, and then you put it out there for others to do so. But I think the main thing that I've had this like sort of mental battle with is making sure that I am myself on there. I've even told you about this, like, sometimes when I'm, like, if I'm, like, running with the camera or whatever, and then I'll say a certain line with a tonality that just doesn't sound like me, and then I'll just redo it. And then I'm, no, it's not me, and then I'll redo it until it sounds actually like I am talking to you in the pub or whatever.

Tommy:

So, like, one thing that I guess I battled with is just making sure that I am actually my full, like, my my real self and not, like, at some persona. Because I I just yeah. I hate I hate the idea that I would be different, you know, on the platform than if if someone were to meet me. But I haven't I haven't bowed heaps. I mean, some you know, you get the odd yeah.

Tommy:

I get the odd, like, hateful comment and whatever, but I just laugh about it, actually. I'm now genuinely at a point where I just laugh about it. But yeah.

Dean:

Well, I think it's, like, I mean, look, I know your story. I've kind of been here with you for a lot of this kind of, like, jump you've had and stuff, but I just love highlighting it and getting into it with you because you've come, you know, you've we've quit the job prematurely. You fucked it up. You know, you felt hopeless. You've tried.

Dean:

You failed. You've came back to sales and then you've actually done it. You've found this thing and you are literally in the process. Mhmm. You have just left, and you're on the cusp of this, like, whole new like, you never you just don't know what's ahead of you now.

Dean:

And that's that's actually that that is the last question I wanna ask you right now is what does this future look like for you now?

Tommy:

Who knows, man? No. Well, do you

Dean:

What do you think Tommy Lewis in 2026 looks like October, 24 months from now? What's happening?

Tommy:

Well, you know yeah. The the truth is it is just the start. Although, you know, we've we've spoken about the whole process to get here. It's just the start which is a beautiful thing.

Dean:

Because remember, right, we were in a bar earlier this year and you had like I think you had 10,000 followers, maybe 20 at the time.

Tommy:

I think probably January, about 20, maybe 10 10

Dean:

Something like that. And I was like, you know, I was like like I said, I believed in you. And I always have said that. I was like, Tommy, I really back what you're doing. I fucking back it.

Dean:

I was like, 100 k by the end of the year. And you were like you're like, no way.

Tommy:

I was like, stop being an idiot.

Dean:

I was like, I know you're gonna do it. And then you fucked up.

Tommy:

Got defensive, I think. I was like, don't dude, you don't get it. Shut up.

Dean:

And then you hit it in, like, June. Yeah. Mad. Like, so imagine that level of just unexpectedness in 2 years.

Tommy:

Yeah. Well, very practically, like, you know, I'm sort of in the I'm in the launching phase of That's Runnable. So it's in terms of its business model, it's sort of a media company in some ways. What comes under that's runnable is a newsletter, which has been going for 18 weeks now, a podcast, which has just been released, and then we've got, like, merchandise that will come out of that, events that will come from that. The these events specifically will be formatted so that they're inclusive, so more to come on that, but we're looking at sort of events that you can approach in your own way.

Tommy:

And then, you know, all sorts of anything else that would come under that, like info products, digital products online, like plans and guides and that sort of stuff. But that's runnable. I want it to feel really very much like a community. It's a bit of an extension of my own ethos, and it's a way to kind of try and help people feel like they're a part of it. You know?

Tommy:

They're a part of this kind of, you know, run the runnable vibe. And so wherever that goes, I don't know, but 2026, I'm hoping we'll have a few events under our, under our belt and, a bigger community, that's bigger than me.

Dean:

Fuck yeah. Yeah. Tell me, can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this.

Tommy:

I know. This is sick.

Dean:

Appreciate you coming on, brother. I love you to bits.

Tommy:

Nice one. Appreciate it. Let's get out

Dean:

of here. Fuck yeah now.

#15 - Tommy Lewis on How to Replace a 9-5 with Your Passion

headphones Listen Anywhere

More Options »
Broadcast by