#12 - Lewis Kemp on Attracting Dream Clients in Your Sleep
You know in 10 years, 15 years' time that you would not like to still be on this same path.
Lewis:You need to be realistic about about this thing and use what unfair advantages you've got. Put your blinkers on your fucking MacBook. Build it and they will come is nonsense. It's the worst advice ever. Build it, market it incredibly well, market it incredibly uniquely, and then they will come.
Dean:One of the things I saw that you did relatively recently was retire your mom.
Lewis:Because I told her when I started the business, I said, look. I'll retire you in 5 years, you know, provided this all goes well. And it's hardest at the start when it's not sexy, and you see, like, 50 quid coming in here. And they'll jump out of a really secure job because TikTok told them to do it at first. 100 k to get, like, liquid is the hardest.
Lewis:And then from there, you know, you can multiply.
Dean:Welcome back to Quitable, a show for those of you who hate your job providing you the belief and the skills needed to escape this lifelong dynamic of selling your time for money to instead live a life that offers you true autonomy and purpose. My guest today is Lewis Kemp. Now Lewis is a quick witted marketing expert from all the way up North of England. He has an incredible marketing agency called Lightbulb Media and also has a subscription service called, wait for it, the University of Creative Idiots, which I subscribe to myself. Now I have noticed Lewis for a long time.
Dean:I've followed him on LinkedIn and really got such a laugh out of his abrasive and on the nose and no bullshit posts on LinkedIn amidst a sea of people virtue signaling and pretending they're this and that. So it was a pleasure to finally meet him. And by the end of the episode, you'll understand how to build a personal brand without being a dickhead, why emotions play a crucial role in your marketing, how to retire your mom by building wealth through business and investments, and why patience and delayed gratification are key to long term success and a hell of a lot more as well. Lastly, I do have a personal favor to ask from you. If you are enjoying what the show is about or appreciate what the mission is, please help me by following the show, subscribing if you're on YouTube, and leaving us a rating if you're on Spotify or Apple.
Dean:Thank you. Enjoy the show, and don't take your boss.
Dean:Lewis, I love your no BS approach. I remember scrolling one day on LinkedIn, and I think I saw one of your posts and I just thought to myself immediately. I was like, I like this guy. Because it was just no BS, and and there's a lot of BS on there. Like, what do you think most people get wrong when it comes to building their personal brand on social media?
Lewis:I think people focus too much on trying to sound like everybody else, 1st and foremost, because they try and kinda, like, be a BTEC version and say, right. What's working for them? I'm gonna try and do that, but, actually, you're you're comparing someone else's, you know, 5 years into to your day 1. So I think that's a bit of a a bit of a silly thing to do. And I think one thing, particularly with when you're in saturated markets as well, you know, like mark market agencies is how many, you know, throw a stone in any direction.
Lewis:You're gonna hit 20. So we're like, right. We all do the same thing, but the thing that a lot of marketing agencies are quite bad at is marketing themselves, getting that attention and getting, you know, the eyeballs on you to allow someone to kind of give you the chance to show how good you are because there's plenty of credible people. And all they talk about and shout about is kind of sales messages. Come and work with me.
Lewis:I'm amazing. But, actually, no one gives a toss about what you do until they care about you first. So developing a personality, I think trying to attract everyone is the the biggest mistake. You know, trying to please everybody as you've probably seen from the stuff I put out. Like, I don't really care if I turn away and repel people that aren't our ideal client because I'm just speaking directly to the people that work like us and speak like us.
Dean:So when you're writing one of these posts then, what's, like, the psychological strings you're trying to put on?
Lewis:I think, ultimately, every post is kinda like the the so what test. When you write something out, you've got to understand what the goal is as far as, like, what that emotional reaction is supposed to be for that post. And it doesn't always have to be a positive reaction, like, you know, happiness. You know, you can use anger. You can use envy.
Lewis:You can use all sorts of things, but it has to ultimately make the reader feel something. Because if I just posted lots of informational stuff about, you know, the technicalities of ads, it'd be fucking boring. So what I try and do is leverage and intertwine some humor in there or pop culture references so that people can associate feeling good, learning something with me. So just on a real base psychological level, if I can make them feel some dopamine and be more memorable when they do need someone to come to, hopefully, we're gonna be top of mind.
Dean:So you're a creative process. Like, you lead with how you want someone to feel.
Lewis:Yeah. Ultimately, I think it's, the actual writing process itself I try and kind of like batch create, so you're not having to think on the fly. So if you can find whatever your flow state is, you know, might be first thing in the morning, might be before you go to bed, might be walking the dog, might be when you're in the toilet. It doesn't really matter. Whenever you're in that state, put down everything out of your head, and I just put it in my notes app.
Lewis:Get all the rumbles down ultimately about what you think. And then when you come back to it, that kind of creative ideation process is done. Then what you're going in is going right. That's the topic I wanna talk about, and that's when you can go right. For someone reading that, what's the ultimate emotion I want them to feel?
Lewis:They want them to feel, you know, form or scarcity or urgency or pain or happiness, and then that can help you kind of structure the post as as far as making that, evoking that feeling.
Dean:What's interesting to hear you highlight is that you lead with emotions. And for me, I've worked, before I'm doing this, 8 years in tech sales. Right? And good money, but brutal. I'm not there anymore, thankfully.
Dean:But when you're in sales, like, people make decisions when they're emotional. People make decisions and buying decisions, especially very often from an emotional place rather than a place of logic. And I think that's probably what a lot of at least sellers get wrong. And from the way you're saying it, it seems like people don't really lead with emotions, which is quite an interesting, like, approach to have when you're doing your your your writing. Yeah.
Dean:But you you're like post. Right? You get hundreds and hundreds of comments on it. In terms of negative ones
Lewis:Yeah.
Dean:What's one of the funniest ones that you can recall, and how did you respond?
Lewis:Oh, man. I've been, you know, attempted to be canceled so many times, but the thing is people people don't read and interpret what is there and take it as a given. What people will tend to do is read something. And if you are looking to be offended, you will formulate whatever that post is and make it match your own predetermined conceptions of whatever the issue is just because, you know, there are people out there that just just love being offended, and that's how they get their kicks. But ultimately, I give them enough rope to hang themselves and then let them come in and and they say something like, oh, you know, it's this isn't being very inclusive, but then they'll say something that judges me of being like white straight male.
Lewis:And I was like, well, that's not very inclusive of you either. So eventually, it's quite easy to argue with people that aren't as intelligent, because you can very easily use their own words against them and make them look silly. And then that usually tends to either be in blocked or they delete their comments. And, yeah, I I can't deny. I do enjoy doing that.
Lewis:I I do I I do I do get throws from knowing that someone's day has been ruined just by some words on the Internet.
Dean:Because you're you're removing your emotions from it.
Lewis:You're
Dean:not getting emotional whereas they are.
Lewis:Yeah. Yeah. People are very easy to trigger, and I think a sign of a good marketer if you know what buttons to press for people. You know, if you see them visit your profile 3 times in 20 minutes and then they, you know, you see this massive big post that they've done because they've clearly lost the plot, I enjoy that. It means it means I've still got it.
Dean:I wanna I wanna get to your business as well, by the way, and understand, like, how you structured that, how you built it, how you created this life for yourself. But just sticking on LinkedIn for one more moment as well was one of your favorite I swear to god, man, I cracked up with this. Here are 33 lessons I've learned from turning 33, and you won't believe number 8 only joking. I'm not a nonce. I I'm just thinking to myself, how does Lewis get away with something like that on what is traditionally such a professional platform?
Lewis:Funnily enough. Remember when they used to have, like, hashtags that used to let you know they were trending? I did a post about Prince Andrew, and it went really, really well because everyone was laughing. Then it was like, no. Is trending.
Lewis:Get involved in the conversation. I was like, that was that was the problem. That was my, like, 25 meter swimming bags moment. I was like, yes. Yeah.
Lewis:Because I've been dancing so many times that they won't let me be, like, whatever it is these days. The top voice contribute or whatever. They don't let the naughty kids on there. So good. That's that's my achievement.
Lewis:Getting non stranded.
Dean:That's so funny. I completely pulled that off. Right. Let's get into your to to your business. And I I wanna understand the the structure of this as well and and how you do it.
Dean:But one of the things I saw, that you did relatively recently was retire your mom, which Yeah. That was quite touching for me to read that, you know, because instantly, right, if we're going back to the emotion, I just imagined doing that for my mom and how every human being in the world can relate to what you posted about on that. And I'm just curious. How how did that feel the day you told her that you were gonna do that?
Lewis:It was good. I mean, it wasn't too much of a surprise because she's basically been blagging my head every time ever since I started the business saying when can I retire? When can I retire? Because I think she's getting to the stage where she hated her job. So it was kind of it was my fault really because I told her when I started the business, I said, look, I'll retire you in 5 years, you know, provided this all goes well.
Lewis:So I think it was like 5 and a half or something it took like, last last Christmas. But, yeah, it's it's a nice feeling, you know, if you've seen someone graph their ass off and go through kind of separations and do jobs that you probably didn't wanna do for a while. And then obviously have to raise the little knob head that was me, and I turned out kinda semi alright in the end. So it was, yeah, it was good. I mean, she's, loving life now with her little dog just milling around, playing a bit of bingo here and there, going on nice long dog walk.
Lewis:So it's, it's nice to see. But, yeah, it's a bit of a weird one because you have that as, like, the number one thing on your list for so long without really, like, doing anything for yourself. Because I asked my dad as well, and he was like, no. No. No.
Lewis:Leave me. I'll I'll never retire. And he and he won't. There's no point even trying to convince him. But now I'm like, okay.
Lewis:What do I do with what do I do now? What's the next number one kind of thing to aim for? I'm not very good at buying things for myself. I'm very I'm very good at delayed gratification, so I'm like, yeah. I'll get something for myself in 10 years.
Lewis:Well, let me put something else first.
Dean:So was that when you started your North Star?
Lewis:Yeah. Yeah. Always. Always. Always.
Lewis:Always. Yeah. I've never really been super car, you know, splash out on all this stupid shit, like and then you turn up. But people do that, and then, like, you know, the parent you look at the parents, and they're still grafting their asses off. And I'm like, yeah.
Lewis:Where do your priorities lie there? Like, you're just doing that status. Whereas where we grew up, like I said, we didn't have a lot we didn't have a lot of money. Parents separated kind of, I don't know, 10, 11, but then lived together continuously for, like, up until when I was, like, 15, 16 before we eventually kind of moved out. So when you see stuff like that and people not have money or security or freedom, being able to give that to someone, I think, is a is a really nice thing.
Dean:That's special, man. Really special. So in terms of how you funded this, because it costs money to retire a human being. So in terms of how that occurred, you know, your bread and butter, light bulb media, you've been doing that since 2018. Like, how much revenue does a business need to turn over or to profit in order for you to be able to do something like that?
Lewis:Well, it wasn't even all from that. Obviously, I got, you know, the the business will provide a good amount of money, but then there's also kind of investments. So the best thing about kind of, where I went to school, I ended up getting a scholarship to a private school. And you've got to be around people that obviously had money and rich families and and things like that. So I was quite daft in thinking I I just wasn't financially literate.
Lewis:You know, you grow up, you save, you put money in a pension, and that's it. And, actually, you learn about the power of investing and compound investing and kind of what's high risk and what's low risk and stocks and shares and bonds, and obviously, crypto has made a bit of a thing. So it's taken at the start the small bits of money that I had that I was paying myself, investing it. And as you make more, you put more into that, you put more into that. And, again, I've been very good at delayed gratification.
Lewis:So what started at, like, you know, 24 years old, putting in, like, 50 quid a month, and then you can put in 100, then 200, then 500, then a1000. After 6 years, that's a lot of money compound interested. And then you can make investments that obviously, you know, in property or crypto or the metaverse that kinda do provide you with a lot of passive income, which you can then put through businesses and obviously set her up on something that she gets that's pretty much kind of, like, risk free guaranteed forever. And then, yeah, whatever whatever else she needs, obviously, I'm I'm there, but she's getting whatever she was getting before, like 1.5 times her salary. But, you know, she has much fewer outgoings now, which is well, in fact, I say that to fucking dog.
Lewis:She spends 100 and 100 of pounds on that dog now. So I think she's actually probably in the same position.
Dean:So sounds like in order for me to retire my mom, I just need patience and compound interest. I'm gonna have to note that down.
Lewis:I'm gonna be honest with you. Not even in just, like, finance. They're just in anything in business as well. Everything. Yeah.
Lewis:If if you're not planning if you're planning something like 12 months or something like that, it's just not long enough. You need to think in 5 10 year increments and say, I'll start now and I'll do this. And you just make it a habit, and it's hardest at the start when it's not sexy. And you see, like, a 50 quid coming in here, or you're only getting one new one new lead a month or something like that. But a lot of it is literally just repetition of the fundamentals for the for 3 to 5 years.
Lewis:Put your blinkers on. Don't fucking look up. By the time you look up, you're in a really nice position. And then from there, you know, they always say, like, the first 100 k to get, like, liquid is the hardest. And then from there, you know, you can multiply it because you can take calculated risk.
Lewis:You've got more to play with. But, yeah, the the first bit is a grind to get in there.
Dean:Yeah. So your business now as it exists, like, how how many customers do you have? And, you know, obviously, it's you provide a range of services as as a media agency, and you can, you know, maybe outline some of what those are. But just to get a scale so somebody can who's listening can, like, conceptualize what it looks like right now. Like, how many customers do you have, and what type of companies do you work with?
Lewis:Yeah. So there's about 25 on the roster at the minute, and it's predominantly the retained retained services. So we have, like, 3 main pillars in the business. We've got the the social, so the organic management of, you know, pages, community engagement, things like that. We have the content side, which is kind of the biggest bit because it can be graphic design, branding, copywriting, personal branding, etcetera.
Lewis:And then we have the paid ad side, which is the amplification of it. So we'll we'll get the strategy. We'll create the content, and then we'll amplify it to to the right people. A lot of brands that we work with, that kind of 70% of them are ecommerce brands, that that wanna scale up. So, you know, we'll create that concept for them and then and then put it out.
Lewis:And then the last ones, like, the 30% are b to b, but we don't just work with that any b to b brand. It's they have to be open to trying new things and being creative. I think it's actually easiest to wear the b to b brands because the bar is so fucking painfully low that you do not have to do a lot to be the standout in your industry, but they just have a lot more fear. Well, they shouldn't because there's much less competition, and it's very easy to take market share. So, So, yeah, we're quite picky with who we deal with in terms of, you know, they have to understand the unit economics, you know, understand, the concept of marketing and that attribution is pretty much a myth and that what we need to do is zoom out, look blended, understand our numbers, and understand what's kind of incremental growth.
Lewis:So, yeah, it's a it's a good spread. We're in a very fortunate position where we can kind of pick and choose who we who we can work with now, and it takes a good few years of pain and picking the wrong clients and hiring the wrong people to actually learn those lessons and spot those red flags early now to you should always go with your gut. I tell everyone, fucking hell, my gut feeling has been right every time, every single time. And still you do the same thing again going, it will be different. And then you go, oh, no.
Lewis:That person's a wanker. Why didn't I why have I just wasted another 3, 6 months?
Dean:Your gut is a powerful thing, man. And it's it's sometimes hard to listen to it because you've got all that logic of, oh, well, look at the money. But like you said, man, you you find out the hard way. And, also, I want to get a sense for you know, you come across very integral on your posts, and you call out a lot of people who get into your world who are, let's say, cowboys, for lack of a better term. Right?
Lewis:Yeah.
Dean:Like and it's clear that that's kinda like a driving force for you that you wanna maintain this the the the sort of backbone of what you're doing and and distance yourself from people who are just cowboy, really, you know, which they exist in every industry. But how or when did integrity become so important for you in this?
Lewis:I think it's, I think it's 2 for 1 one is strategic because, ultimately, having a villain, you know, they they they can't be a Batman unless you've got a joker. And there's a lot of there's a lot of jokers around, ultimately. And then one was actually just kind of a bit of a ramp because when people were coming to us, it was people that have been burned. And they've been like, oh, I saw this thing, and they promised me that. And they did this, and they said they'd do that.
Lewis:And then they just never spoke to me, and then they tied me into this 12 month contract, and it was terrible. So it's like, you know, I'm all for people, you know, trying to make a pound. You know, do you do you thing, but not when you put in someone's livelihood at risk. And then it's always us to ask them to pick up the pieces and all the confidence and budget and, you know, potentially that they did have, where then having to put the arm around the shoulder and say, no. No.
Lewis:No. That that's all bollocks. We need to unfuck all this and do it properly, and it might cost you a little bit more now. So it's like, the I don't mind. We've all been young.
Lewis:We've all been starting out. We've all made stupid stupid offers like, oh my god. You can access me 247 and things like that. But I just think there's kind of a limit to it. There's so many shooting styles online in every industry.
Lewis:They come promise the world, burn bright, then they start fucking shilling something else. And it's like, oh, you you're you're a marketer, but then you're a LinkedIn coach, but now you do forex and now you're doing AI courses. And I'm like, fucking make the money. You know what I mean? So it's like consistency and retention are 2 of the biggest signals for, like, success in picking a picking a good partner.
Lewis:You know, most of our clients have have been with us kind of by over over 3 years. So, like, half of the time we've been been going, some have been with us literally from year 1.
Dean:I'd imagine a lot of the people who are doing this probably get in and they have maybe been misled by some guru online saying that you can get 10 clients and then you'll be laughing for the rest of your life. And then all the realities of running a business probably set in. And then they think, oh, shit. And then the world starts to kinda close in around them. And that is a place I've certainly been, believe me, when running my business.
Dean:I'm sure you've been there as well, and I can see why it might lead somebody to make decisions that doesn't serve the client and that leaves them in the mess that then you have to clean up. I can see the path that somebody would go down and then repeated that over many times, and then the industry gets a bad rep.
Lewis:Mhmm. And
Dean:but it's understandable how people can get to that point. Like, how do you think someone can avoid if they were, let's say, trying to get into digital marketing or being an agency, running an agency, how could they prevent that from becoming, a reality down the line? Hey there. Quick interruption to give you a little freebie. I am recruiting people to join my newsletter.
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Lewis:On the agency side as if you're an agency, I think it's I think it's really difficult. I think the best thing to do is go somewhere else that's like a startup potentially where you can you know, in 6 months at a startup, you'll learn more than any educational course that you will do. The problem is it's a really dangerous mindset at the minute where everyone's like, you know what? You should all be business owners and go and fly to Bali, and you can do this and do that. And people are mistaken to think, oh my god.
Lewis:I'm good at a thing. Therefore, I can run a business doing that thing. Fucking let me let me tell you. The percentage of time I spend doing actual marketing now is minimal. It's HR.
Lewis:It's putting out fires. It's accounts. It's finance. It's reconciling this over here. Then you've got to do your business development.
Lewis:Then you've got to do your personal branding and content stuff. Just being good at a thing does not mean you're gonna have the facilities or time or capability to actually run a business doing that thing. So I think the first step for anyone, regardless of whether you're a business owner or you wanted to start an agency, is self awareness. What are you good at? What are you bad at ultimately?
Lewis:Because what you wanna do is outsource the things that you're shy at as soon as humanly possible and where figure out where you add the most value to the to the business. And a lot of people get trapped in in that and, you you know, just dicking around going, oh, well, I might change the hue on my logo to a a different shade down or reduce the font size on my website. And I'm like, fucking go and get a customer. Go and get a customer. Right?
Lewis:This is this is mental masturbation. Go out and get one sale. And when you get that one sale, pick up the phone and go, why did you choose us? Why did you almost not choose us? Who else was in the running?
Lewis:What made you choose us in the end? Where did you first find out about us? How long did it take you to go from finding us to choosing us? That is gold dust, and people are allergic to picking up the phone and actually speaking to their customers these days. So I think that's one of the best things you can actually do.
Dean:Yeah. I saw you say this on a podcast actually, where which you you said, you should do what you're don't do what you love. No. Do what you're good at. Yeah.
Dean:And then do what you love. Yeah. I was like, I I just thought that's genius because I myself did that. You know? As I said, I was in sales for 8 years, then created my my own business and, you know, invested money in a course and mentorship, built a business and property that allowed me to segue out of that.
Dean:And now I've created this podcast to try and, you know, help people, and I actually enjoy this. I take joy out of this. But I had to kinda do the thing I was good at first. Like, what makes you what made you think that you you should do it in that order?
Lewis:Because to be honest with you, mate, is that is that dangerous kind of mindset again, that TikTok mindset, that I idealism that you you should only do things that set your soul on fire. And if the world doesn't mold around you, then, you know, stand your ground, baby girl. The world's a shit place. Like, it isn't gonna mold. It isn't gonna mold around you, and it's not always necessarily gonna be the thing that you're good at that you like.
Lewis:If you do manage to find that, oh my god. You've you've actually hit the jackpot. But you know what I love doing? Eating salt and pepper chicken and watching Marvel films. It isn't gonna build me a career.
Lewis:So you need to be realistic about about this thing and use what unfair advantages you've got. Because, yes, on one hand, I didn't really have any unfair advantages in terms of we didn't have loads of money. I don't really know people to put me in certain rooms. But also I have the massive advantages of being white, straight, male, and born into the 6th richest economy in the world. So, again, it's perception on these things.
Lewis:And I think mindset's everything, particularly for young people now and just the kind of lack of resilience that that people have got. You know, if someone gets told no or asked to do something that they don't like, they're suddenly claiming they've got PTSD, and I'm just like, oh, the world's gonna fucking eat you up and you are gonna, you know, in 10 years' time, you're just gonna be on your ass alienated from everything. But you there's only so much you can tell people. They sometimes have to feel the pain for themselves. And
Dean:Yeah. I think, like, people struggle because there's a lot of choice anxiety.
Lewis:Like, you
Dean:know, the the the difficult thing is being in a on a path, and you'd know that the path isn't right. So let's use an an avatar similar to myself who is in sales in tech. Right? You know you're on this path. You know it's going a certain direction, and you know in 10 years, 15 years' time that you would not like to still be on this same path.
Dean:Yet, equally, you have there's so many options of how to create your first business. It's very it's very difficult to choose. And I know because I've been there, and maybe you had this same experience when you started as well. But, like, let's say the person then has sat down and identified these things that they are good at, whether it's, like, relationship building, marketing, strategy, numbers, whatever. They figured this out.
Dean:Then what?
Lewis:I think rather than jumping in unless you've got, like, buckets of cash behind you or you're you're a Nepo baby or something like that, you can get a few make a few daddy can make a few calls and put you into a room. I think the safest thing to do is work on that in your 5 to 9. And, again, people go, oh, no. You can't overwork. You'll burn out.
Lewis:Well, guess fucking what? If you wanna actually step out of it, the most sensible thing to do is test it on a small level, build something, build a proof of concept, put it out, speak to people, do they want it? Can I start a waiting list for it? Can I, you know, go out and offer people to come in and work at a reduced rate and and do that as a little bit of a side hustle up until the point where it gets as close to, if not exceeding your actual income? Because then, yes, then you can actually make the step out.
Lewis:So I think put one tow out because what a lot of people will do is they'll they'll have a great idea, and ideas are fucking 10 a penny. And they've got a great idea, and then they'll jump out of a really secure job because TikTok told them to do it. And then they sat there going, oh, fuck. I'm just one of a 1000000 people trying to do the same thing and say the same thing. And then they start looking for people to blame.
Lewis:And, actually, there's no one else to blame but yourself. You have to be logical about this and have a little bit of a strategy. Build it and they will come is nonsense. It's the worst advice ever. Build it.
Lewis:Market it incredibly well. Market it incredibly uniquely, and then they will come. And then you've gotta deliver to make them stay because that's where your money's made.
Dean:Yeah. You think when they come, then you think it's all good, but that's actually when another chapter starts. Right?
Lewis:Exactly. Yeah. Then you've got to actually focus on delivery because your reputation is something that takes years to build and can be lost overnight. And that is you know, you you need to be willing to put that put that time in and be honest with people because, you know, even clients that we've had where it's not worked out for whatever reason, we still leave them on good terms or refer them to other people or give them, you know, off boarding and say you should go and do do do this before you come back. So people remember that because we have people that I spoke to kind of in year 2 of the business that come back and said, you know, you told us to go away and fix x, y, and zed.
Lewis:We did that, and now we're ready. So people do remember even if, you know, you're not working with them. So it's important to make sure that you develop as many, like, good relationships as you can because this life, your life is dictated by the the relationships you're able to form. You don't always have to be like, well, I'm sure I'm very much Marmite and not liked by the masses, but I couldn't I couldn't really give a toss. Like, if you're not my family, my friends, or you're not paying me as a client, I don't give a fuck what you think.
Lewis:And it's it's working well so far.
Dean:Going back to the part where you talked about the person who sees a TikTok ad and then quit their job. Yeah. And then obviously, financially, that's just a very risky decision. Right? It quite it might create the pressure required to create that diamond.
Dean:Fair enough. It might work sometimes, but would it be advisable? Absolutely not. Mhmm. Definitely not.
Dean:But, like, when when you made the transition from your old you you you were working in a company. Right? And then you made a transition to starting your own business.
Lewis:Yeah.
Dean:What how did you segue out? Like, did you bring this business up to a certain point and then gracefully go out? Or what was your sort of exit like in that sense?
Lewis:Yeah. It was me. I was very lucky. I had a really good relationship with the owner at the time, and he wanted to go one direction. And I mentioned that I wanted to go in another direction.
Lewis:So we had an honest chat, you know, really worked well together, and then it was a case of I just kinda didn't like being told what to do by people that didn't know what they were talking about, which, you know, I raised. And then he was like, yeah. Clients can be like that, and that's fine. Well, then some of the clients that we were working with there said, look, if you're going, we'd like you to continue doing this. So I was very, very fortunate in the fact that I kind of went out on my own, but then had 3 clients straight away, which paid the bills, which is a really, really nice position to be in.
Lewis:So there wasn't that immediate, fuck. How do I eat and pay rent here? Which some people thrive under and some people crumble under. I think I would have been alright anyway in the end, but that comfort blanket of going, right, I can I can cover this here even if I was chronically undercharging? I can cover the bills at the very least and try and be a little bit strategic.
Lewis:So, yeah, that's how I kind of, like, bounced out into the self employment stage.
Dean:Would you recommend somebody to get into owning their own agency?
Lewis:Don't do that. I mean, you know, it it depends what your strengths are. I started because I love to work, and I and I do still love the work. I love I love writing copy for for cool brands. I love, you know, turning people's ad spend into, you know, massive profits and revenue and helping them scale.
Lewis:I think it's great. As an agency owner, with every team member that you add and, you know, more work comes in, so you need more, team members to fulfill that work. It gets to the stage where you get further and further from the work, and that's cool for some people, and I get it. But you do become, like, a manager and a and a cat herder, a herder of people and, and operations and things like that. And I just fucking it's not the bit that I'm interested in.
Lewis:I just wanna do cool shit for cool people. So if you're a very kind of people person, I think I'm a better leader than I am a manager because I just assume everyone works like me. And I'm like, give me a task, give me a deadline, get out of the way, and let me do it, and I'll do it. People like, everyone's so different, and everyone plopped into a team, has to then get on with the other person. There's so many dynamics.
Lewis:So, yeah, sometimes I do sit and long for the days when it was just me in charge of my own destiny. You had no one to keep fed and alive, but, you know, we are we are where we are, and I've got a I've got a good bunch, good bunch now. We all get on really, really well, and we do good work. But I certainly wouldn't wanna scale to you know, we're we're 8 people now, and I shouldn't I I wouldn't ever wanna scale to a 100, 200 people. Like, I thought I did at the start, but then, my god, I was like, no.
Lewis:Thank you. Every one of those agency owners you see at that level, bald, and I like my hairline.
Dean:It goes back to what you said earlier. Like, you you think about what your day to day is gonna be like, what your life is gonna be like, what you're gonna actually be doing day to day. Like, do you want to have a big business where you are responsible for 60 people all reporting up to you and going, Lewis, Lewis, Lewis, blah blah blah blah. Or do you wanna just actually keep smaller, earn less, but do what you like? And that is something I found that's a position I found myself in in my business now, which I I was like, okay.
Dean:I can scale this even more, but
Lewis:I don't
Dean:want the fucking headache.
Lewis:I found I found I found the opposite. Like, there was more margin and higher profits at a smaller team at 4 heads rather than rather than 8. So it's like because, you you know, you get people on and then, you know, obviously, you've gotta pay pay their wages. And then also you might need new software that comes on with these new people that'll come on. And then sometimes if a client churns, you still gotta pay those people until you've replaced that.
Lewis:So, actually, the margins actually get tighter, and that's why I was like, god. Yeah. We need to, you know, scale debt down rather than across, not get more and more clients actually. Work deeper with the clients that we've got. What other services can we offer you?
Lewis:Because we love working together with these people. So we're not constantly in that feast, famine cycle of of looking for clients. We're like, look. It's kind of like a one in one out for a lot of people if, you know, we outgrow them or they outgrow us. It happens.
Lewis:This is marketing. This is life. Not that we're mad about it, but then we can bring someone else in and and go deeper there. So I think it's certainly a less stressful way to to to live rather than be running around panicking, but it's something that I personally like.
Dean:One of the things that's kinda standing out to me throughout what we're saying here is the concept of just playing longer games and delaying when you can get the carrot that is maybe it's being able to travel freely, maybe it's to retire your mom, right, maybe it's to bring your kids or buy your kids this, that, or the other, whatever.
Lewis:Mhmm.
Dean:But there's certainly the real victories and the real payoffs are to be found 3 years from now
Lewis:Yeah.
Dean:2 years from now. Like, what seeds are you sowing now that actually will come good for you down the line? And it's it's difficult because we're in such a quick dopamine hit world where everything's quick, everything's now. And and it it's certainly curbing our brains to, like, want shit right this second. Don't don't wait for anything.
Dean:You know? Get it now. Like, how could you how would you suggest to somebody to actually start delaying the things that they're wanting and and putting them further out in their mind?
Lewis:I think, ultimately, it's, your result of what you consume and who you surround yourself with. And if you're surrounded by people who are constantly, you know, on fad diets or looking for a 7 step to build a 7 figure business in 7 days and all that stuff, you need to detach yourself. And then it sounds really, really harsh, but you need to detach yourself from from people like that. And also curating your social feeds is really, really important because subconsciously, if you're consuming that shit every day, then you will eventually start to believe the bullshit. And I think algorithms, you know, whilst they're amazing, they have a lot to answer as well, but you can't blame, you know, Meta or TikTok for showing you things that you hover and stop the thumb on.
Lewis:Like, you're telling them what you wanna see more of. So you have to take be very active with your kind of digital health, I would, I suppose, I would call it, and surround yourself with people who are saying the actual, you know, the realities of it. I remember, like, an old mentor of mine told me it was like the the cue for comforting lies will will always be longer than the one for uncomfortable truths. And I was like, that's so true. Everyone wants to hear that.
Lewis:And they're like, you know, yeah, this is okay. And if you just do this and this and actually, what that business might need is someone's come in and go, this is a fucking disaster. You need to fix that that that rip it up, start again. But people are very precious. Like you say, people struggle to put their egos aside these days.
Lewis:We've all we're so interconnected, but everyone is still trapped in their own kind of narcissistic bubble of the world should wrap around me and I'm right. And anything that challenges my preconceptions, I'm not gonna engage with. I'll just say cancel, do better, and shout and scream and kick my feet until and then eventually block people because you can't have an intelligent conversation. So I'm a big believer in keeping people in your feed that you don't agree with, and I'm a big believer in keeping people in your feed who have been there and done what you want to do. I wouldn't take advice from anyone who hasn't been there and done exactly what I want to do if it's advice on that topic, obviously.
Dean:One of the things that I would like to get your thoughts on as well is, you know, in keeping with the theme of people who peddle this idea that business can be done quickly and easily and obviously mislead people and make them think that their life is shit and they could be living this glamorous life that's, like, always sexy. You're always on a fucking yacht. You're always just earning 20 k while you slept the night before. Like and that's obviously just not true. Like, there's a price to pay with whatever choice you make.
Dean:If you stay in a job you dislike, you pay the price of just sitting that career out for 15, 20, 30 years and never knowing what you could have done. Mhmm. If you pay the price of going to make your own business, you'd be pulling your hair out, you'll lose sleep, and so on and so on. Mhmm.
Lewis:But, like,
Dean:what do you think about the sort of wave of people who are selling courses for, like, 10, 15 k and claiming that they will get you these insane results?
Lewis:I think it's, you know, it's it's much harder to to sell that volume to hit the figures that you wanna hit. Let's be dead honest. There's a lot of idiots in the world. Right? A lot.
Lewis:Some of those idiots have got money. And if you're selling something for 15 k, you only need a 100 idiots out of 8,000,000,000. You only need a 100 idiots, and you've got a really, really nice looking business. And, you you know, you put in all your small print and stuff like that. I know it didn't work.
Lewis:Oh, what a shame. You mustn't have applied it right and then upsell to another course. And people will do it because they're desperate and because they're greedy. And you can just keep those idiots on the hook. It's why MLMs are so good.
Lewis:If you look at the people that that are selling courses, you know, you you see business coaches that have never had a business. You see LinkedIn coaches that have got horrendous presence on there. It's if you were that good at doing it, you know, you would have actually done it first. What these people do is they convince you that they made their money through the strategy that they're selling you. But, actually, you are the products.
Lewis:When they show you those revenue screenshots, it's not because they've done this 7 step copyright and framework. It's because you fucking thought there was a 7 step copyright and framework and bought it from them. Right? And then they show you the money, and it's a little merry-go-round of, you know, if you can't do, teach. If you can't do, teach because then I can sell it to the masses.
Lewis:And what I'm selling is hope, and hope is the biggest market in the world. Hope, religion, drugs. That's it.
Dean:I can relate because I was in a cohort of people who bought a course, and it's extortionately expensive, man. And and I wouldn't be where I am without it. But I'm one of, like, you know not a lot of people get through that, man. You know? I'm like a model student, if you like.
Dean:I would be I would be kind of upset to know the actual success rate of people who do this strategy when everyone who does this particular strategy in property ends up selling a course on it. It's not to say it doesn't work. It's just what I don't particularly agree with is the ethics of selling it at such a high price. Yes. Charge for the information, but let's do it in a way that's kind of fair on people who are a little bit more unsuspecting and maybe have never run a business or aren't asking the right questions.
Lewis:Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely a a question of morals and ethics. I would say, bloody, I'll be a billionaire if I don't have morals or ethics because people are, you know, incredibly simple to kind of influence, particularly when you group them together as well. They will they will kind of validate each other and say, yeah.
Lewis:Yeah. You know, we should stay in it. We should we should maybe we should invest in the next one as well. And then Yeah. Help them in prophecy and and and the the call center sat back going, oh my god.
Lewis:This is actually amazing. I've got them selling to each other for for me. But, yeah, people just want something to believe in ultimately, and that's why I hope to kill her. I mean, yes, I'm a cynic, but being a cynic has made and saved me tens, if not 100 of 1,000 of pounds over the years because I deal in data with no emotion to it, and that doesn't lie. Men lie.
Lewis:Women lie. Data doesn't lie.
Dean:So I one of the I mean, look. I see all your posts. I see, you know, what you're about. And at least as your social media and this conversation would have me believe you're quite an ethical upstanding guy. Right?
Dean:And one of the things I can confidently say that with is your university of creative idiots. Right? Yeah. And you I wanna get your take on on why that is. Because I think it's great because somebody maybe who's not well versed in marketing can get in there and and do it.
Dean:But what the key thing you're doing with that is that's touching back to ethics, is that it's a subscription model. Right? And the key with a subscription model is it's fair because it gives you the information, but it only retains you if it's valuable. It's not a, hey. Pay this massive fee up front.
Dean:It's stay with me if you're getting value, and then I get my fair fair payment for that. Right? So I rate the way you've charged that, by the way, because it shows that you're actually trying to help rather than to serve yourself.
Lewis:Mhmm.
Dean:Which is kinda what this whole podcast I've started is about. It's, like, you know, trying to serve others and not just to be make it about me, because if it was about me, I'd sell fucking property courses all day. So I really respect that. Could you touch on that, the University of Creative Idiots, and, like, explain how maybe someone listening might be able to get some value from that?
Lewis:Yeah. Definitely. So I was chatting, with my business partner on it now, Dan Kelsall. He's quite, prolific on LinkedIn as well. And we were just talking about marketing because we have I think we both when he had his agency, I've got mine now.
Lewis:You know, we both hired and and spoken to grads that have got marketing degrees. And then they come in and you ask them to do something, and they don't know their ass from their elbow because they've learned theory. But by the time they've learned that theory, that theory was out of date by the end of module 1 in year 1. And we are now you know, they've they've done 3 years of that stuff that hasn't actually been relevant. And then on the other side of things, we've also been approached by small businesses who say, look.
Lewis:We'd love to pay you, you know, a few grand a month and put this money into apps, but, actually, we're fucking bootstrapping this, and it's really, really hard. And, you know, it's in their best interest. We have to turn them away because they are not ready for us. They're not gonna be able to afford us. They haven't got a runway.
Lewis:And we couldn't really find anywhere to send them that had valuable bits of information for a small amount. It was actually done by people that were credible. So we decided to put the University of Creative Idiots together, and that's essentially kind of an online edutainment platform. So you get kind of lessons from me and Dana across a variety of subjects, talking about campaigns we've done and what's actually relevant and working now. We also bring in guest lecturers who have, you know, built businesses or multiple businesses, through being creative and who can talk about how they they approach their marketing, as well.
Lewis:And And then there's a community element in there as well, so we can have, like, a creative hive mind. We do a weekly live q and a. We can do, like, roast my post sessions in there where people put their LinkedIn posts in and we give them feedback. There's all and then there's also kind of, like, shit payers so that you can protect people that are just starting off in the market in Korea who might get done over. And then long term, you know, we've got the plan.
Lewis:We've already had a few brands ask us to help us find help them to find creative marketers that are good. So there's a potential recruitment arm as well where we can kind of match make and put great people in touch with great businesses. We know we'll look after them. So, yeah, ultimately, it's kind of yeah. To build the best marketing and creative community on earth, but also do it whilst having a laugh and playing dress up.
Dean:The ad was funny in this auditorium. Yeah. I love that.
Lewis:Yeah. The ad I I we we didn't think it through. Like, we're like, oh, yeah. Let's buy 20 sex dolls. And then we're like, shit.
Lewis:We gotta blow up 20 sex dolls. You know how hard that is? Honestly, we thought it was 5 minutes. The video guys staring at us and my dog's going, be with you in a minute.
Dean:Yeah. And then the first line in it was just like, put that spliff away. Yeah.
Lewis:Oh, Gary with his spliff. Yeah. It took so long to balance that split on that next month.
Dean:Brilliant. So if I, like, have no experience then, I'm, like, a novice. I let's say I work in accounting. Right? And I think I would like the idea of being an agency.
Dean:I like the creativity part of it. I like the fact that I can still build a massive business like Lewis has and maybe retire my fucking mom in 4 or 5 years. Could they go from where they are now with 0 experience into University of Creative Idiots and start to make some headway?
Lewis:Absolutely. Absolutely. That's the goal of the people that you've got in there now. Yes. There are some current grads in there.
Lewis:Yes. There are some students in there. There are a lot of small business owners in there, and there are kind of solopreneurs and coaches and things like that. There's a big mixed bag in here. And when we're segmenting it all out to semesters, you don't have to have everything.
Lewis:You can come in, see the list of thing. Well, that one's on AI. That one's on copywriting. That one's on ads. That one's on social.
Lewis:That one's on creative strategy. You can cherry pick the ones you want, watch the guest lectures you want, ask the questions you want answered in the weekly q and a. So it's really tailored to, right, what do I actually need help with here? And if you can take, you know, if you can't take one bit of advice from there that you think is worth more than 30 quid, me and Dan are doing something wrong. So we've tried to price it that it's like even for a student.
Lewis:Do you know what I mean? It's just the price of a takeaway or or whatever it may be. It's just so that it it is open for everyone and that everyone everyone deserves the access to it rather than saving loads of money and then having the pants down by some massive agency who doesn't get a toss about them. So, yeah, it's a it's a resource for for everyone to come in and hopefully take something from. And, you know, once the people do do it, we want them to come back and share their their wins so that the grads and students can see that it's actually happening in action here.
Lewis:And if I actually do take this risk, it could pay off. So, yeah, creating examples for people, I think, is is really nice.
Dean:So all somebody needs to do is delay their gratification, get into the University of Creative Idiots, and they can start chipping away at something. That's the one of the things I keep trying to, like, say to my close circle or somebody who's asking me, like, hey. I was just starting my own business. It's like, think longer term. It's just you're gonna have to wait.
Dean:But that's super interesting, man. And I love the way you have the the the reasons by which you've created it, the way you've created it just to actually help people. You've priced it fairly. I think that's great, man. But when I think now about what we started the call with, which was retiring your mom
Lewis:Mhmm.
Dean:And you said that you're that was your big goal and now you're not quite sure where to go, like, what do you think is your next 5 year goal?
Lewis:I think probably getting, like, some more property and and just basically building that well, not not passive, but as close to passive income as you as you can get. Building like a safety net, building more generational wealth because I'm from a fucking council estate in Bolton, mate. We don't have generational wealth. Like, what we're getting left in the world is, like, you know, half a KitKat. So it's I think it's important to try and build up something like that that is a safety net that does give people the financial if if I have kids, you know, give give them the financial privilege of being able to take a risk.
Lewis:Because what I found is when I went to that school and I saw rich people and they have their own businesses now, they didn't just go in and have a successful business. They had mommy and daddy's money that allowed them to fucking try and fail 6, and then they hit big on 7th. Whereas a lot of people from councilor states, you get one chance. And if you fail, it's snakes and ladders. Right that down to the bottom, build up that pot again, go and work in a job that you hate until you've got enough risk, and then you try it again.
Lewis:And hopefully, you've learned that lesson. And that timeline is so much longer rather than just being able to put money into things, fail, learn, iterate, go again. So, yeah, it's, I think that's probably probably the goal. But, yeah, doing doing stuff that's fun. You know, university is fun.
Lewis:We both we both enjoy it. It's a passion project for us both. And if it can go well and help people, then, you know, it is it is very scalable and we can take it, you know, to the US and around Europe and stuff like that and make it make it a big thing, get some really cool guests in.
Dean:So just buy more property and have a laugh?
Lewis:Pretty much, mate. Yeah. Pretty much. Start start getting a bit more of a lifestyle back because honestly, yeah, it's, when you've been doing fucking 80 hour weeks for 5 5 years, It's, it catches up on you once you get past 30 and everything aches and creaks. In in your twenties, you made out of magic, and you could just be like, yep.
Lewis:I don't need sleep. I don't I can forget to eat today, and you just smash through it. Now have a glass of wine on Tuesday, and you're absolutely fucked for 6 days.
Dean:Fucking right, man. It's it's, it's annoying. Lewis, I've I've have to say, I think you've provided a very honest insight into your world, like, what it's actually like, what it's good for, what it's bad for, how you got there, the good things that have came from you getting to where you're at. And and I think you sprinkle a lot of wisdom in there. So anyone who's listening, I hope you found it valley valuable.
Dean:And yeah, man. I really appreciate this, Jack. Thanks for coming on.
Lewis:Thanks, mate. Thanks for having me.
